This point of view.
You make up your own views of why I'm writing this.
We had a conversation over teh tarik and canai last night. A friend, whose sister had fallen in love with a Muslim man and had decided to agree to marry him. The family, a staunchly Christian household, was trying to come to terms with what the youngest daughter's decision meant.
'My dad is more than upset. He behaves as if he has brought her up wrongly.'
'But they're still speaking to each other,' I asked.
'Yes of course, we respect her decision. In a marriage, it's not the beginning that counts, it's the process, and the end. Actually, let's hope there's no end to this marriage,' said our friend, the brother. 'I just want my sister to be happy, you know? I mean, maybe she wouldn't be as happy as she is now if she chose a Christian instead.'
There were about five of us, all of different races, well, except we were in a non-halal restaurant, so go figure. Maybe it was easier to talk about 'issues' like this in such a place. Seriously, the topic was really nothing sensitive, or at least, that's what I feel. I mean, marriages that bind people of different races or faith, always tend to be a little bit troublesome.
Ah Chong (not his real name, of course, a self-professed free-thinker who goes to the local medium occasionally, said, 'You all Christians leave it up to God. If me, I might go to a medium and see what the sifu can do. You know? Burn some paper, do a little charm. Dong chiang dong chiang, you know? Maybe things will be okay.'
'And then?' the brother questioned. 'Not okay how? Burn down the sifu's house izzit? This kind of things, up to God lah. God has greater plans, I cannot understand why He allows these things to happen, but I'm sure there's a reason for all of this.'
Muthu, a Hindu, replied, 'Like the Muslims would say, Insya-Allah.'
'We're not Muslims, do you think it's wrong for us to utilize their words?'
'Well then, 'God willing,' lor… Does it matter?' I said. 'Aiyah, it's your sister's choice, not like it's a BAD thing, why do we make as if a choice to believe is a bad thing?
Muthu chipped in, 'Yeah lah. If she wants, let her lah. I mean, everyone's fighting because of differences in opinion. Like this marriage, I think it's your sister, I know you guys care for her, but maybe she prefers to make her own decisions? Looks like she's decided anyway.'
The brother said, 'I know lah. We just want the best for her.'
That's the same argument everyone stands by, I think. I want the best for you. Sometimes, I feel like saying, 'Bullshit lah, the best for me. You just want me to follow and play by your rules. So that you'd feel good. If you want the best for me you wouldn't be arguing so much with me. You would let me try things out on my own, make my own decisions, and walk on my own learning curve.'
Someone please correct me if you find this post a little sensitive.
Deviations. On a more cheerful note, I bought myself a Sea-Monkey's kit. Have just purified the water, and am waiting for 24 hours to pass. April, kalau tak sampai 24 jam boleh tak proceed with the instant live eggs step?
July 28th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Sea-monkeys! I like. You have to follow exactly to every word they wrote there. Heh, very damn tough to take care ler. You may find some sea monkeys in there already ‘cos doc told me they add some eggs into the water purifier. And ya, if can put in some air bubbles. Those sold in fish supplies store, the smallest power one. Just one or two bubble each time.
July 28th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
By marrying a Muslim, the daughter is basically disowning her parents.
You spend so much efforts and love to bring her up, only to see her get married to someone of a religion who will cause trouble to you and your family.
If I were her father, I will , by any means necessary, prevent such marriage, not because I am a Christian, but because I don’t believe in my family embracing such religion which will split and destroy the family kinship.
Even further evident is her embracement of the religion is not out of sincere understanding of it, but blinded by Love for someone from that religion.
If she passes away one day, her body can only be claimed by the family of those who professes that religion.
If I were her father, when all else fail, I will make sure only our family gets to claim her body, even if I have to prematurely end her life, by whatever means possible, and as a lesson for the rest of the family members who are contemplating converting to that religion.
There will be no place for such disgrace, just as there will be no place for such things from ever happening in the Royal family of Britain, just as Princess Diana had her life prematurely ended before she could disgrace the royal family any further.
July 28th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
no more blogger babe of the month?
July 28th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
Min Keong Mou Han Fook, the girl should not marry the guy. Tensions will arise.
July 28th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
au contraire.
in the girls position, i\’d made up my mind, and i\’d be very angry that everyone from up down left right top under is coming in and telling me how i ought to make my choices because they all say they want the best for me.
i mean, isn\’t this what the whole issue is about? almost a romeo and juliet, only bigger because people want to intensify it.
that said, this is by no means trivializing the issue, it\’s a matter of when to stick our heads in, and when to pull our heads out. if i may say this (of course I may, this is my blog haha), a lot of ppl who comment here like to stick their heads in because they think they\’re right all the time.
matthew: my question is, who is forcing who?
July 28th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
Not if your choice embarasses and disowns your family.
You have to change name, religion, way of life.
Their way of life is not compatible with our way of life.
If she were really genuine in conversion, that’s another story altogether.
But anyone, male or female, who converts just for the sake of love and marriage, will earn contempt disgust from me.
There’re certain things that you cannot accept in this world, because their way of life cannot accept you and incompatible with yours ESPECIALLY when it intrudes into your family.
July 28th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
i think that’s certain things that you, sexyman cannot accept in this world. sexyman, she’s not of your family, i know you care for this stranger, but that said, you have no rights to impose your opinions over the rest of the world.
am i glad you’re not my father. i’d elope with the man of my choice already. *hehe*
July 28th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
Well I am not imposing my opinions on anyone, I am just sharing what I would do if i were involved.
Other than that, that girl can marry anyone she wishes, because she did not intrude into my personal/family space.
July 28th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
so if she’s your daughter? what would you do?
July 28th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
If I can’t bring my heart to do a Diana, I will not have her setting foot into the family home anymore.
She will not have anything more to do with the family.
If I can bring my heart to do it, I will use whatever means necessary to end her existence. >:)
LOVE does NOT conquers all and it should NOT be above everything else.
July 28th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
Sexyman, you’re being harsh. Think of the reverse way, what if it was a Muslim marrying a Christian, and the Muslim decides to drop Islam (if Syariah allows for it). Would you say the Muslim is disowning her parents now?
Yes, I agree with minishorts here… I would go further, but that’s just me
July 28th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
In Malaysia, by doing what you do, you’re actually being very unfair to your future children.
You can claim people like me are imposing my views on others.
But what about the mother who converts, and eventually gives birth to children who are FORCED to be in that religion and not given a choice ?
Who is more selfish eventually ? This country does not allow apostasy.
July 28th, 2006 at 6:07 pm
Everyone here claims to want choice, but how can you claim to want choice when you get yourself involved in a religion that denies you choice, and denies your future offsprings of their freedom of choice to practice any religion they wish ?
No matter how much freedom we want, there’s always a blackhole we have to avoid or else that very same choice we make will deny us and our future offsprings of that very same choice we fought for to be allowed to convert into that religion just for love/marriage.
There’re choices made that will not give you any further choices.
July 28th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
sexyman: unfortunately (i think this applies to you) for many people, this is a situation, but there\’s another choice. if you cannot live with the rule set by the nation, there is another option. why are you still here?
by no means am I chasing you out. but the situation remains like this, as long as one person cannot come to terms with the conditions set by \’certain government quarters\’, one should stop all the efforts and move out. in a rude way, some would go, \’if you don\’t like, you get the hell out.\’
from your point of view, i\’d help you say, \’I give out.\’
sometimes, sexyman, I feel like you, I really do. the system is terrible, so many unjust things, so many situations, I want it to be better, but the system never wants to listen to me. I want to show my love a lot, but it doesn\’t seem to want to accept my brand of care and nurturing.
but I suppose, i\’m not in your shoes yet. I can still tolerate.
but you cannot.
i assume you\’re making your choice?
if you have, then there\’s something else you could do too, and i\’m asking this of you: to respect me as owner of this blog. i don\’t advocate an overtly cheerful picture of malaysia, most readers (who are smart enough) would have noticed that already. but if you have to be so drastic and vicious and upset in your remarks, i beg that you watch your words. you know the laws that are in place. please do not force me to put you out of this comments box.
like i said. The situation is not sensitive, until some unscrupulous commentors take it upon themselves to set up an uncontrolled speakers corner. please respect me and be civil in these discussions.
July 28th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
Heck, I’ll do better, I’ll stop commenting on this topic after this because I’ve made my choice/points very clear.
If they want to impose freedom restrictions on my way of life, then don’t blame me when I disallow anyone from my family from going near their way of life.
As to why I am still here, that’s because that’s where my family are. But rest assured, I have made up my mind and have no plans to remain in this terrible place where the inevitable is going to happen.
As for what that inevitable situation is, no need to spell it out.
July 28th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
//The brother said, ‘I know lah. We just want the best for her.’
It is a very touching statement.
Her father may be more opinionated in the situation; I feel they care for her, especially the brother.
Love is Blind. A lover’s mind is illogical. Her mind is most probably fully occupied with her lover, leaving no space pondering over the real situation. What if the relationship turns sour due to religious conflicts? There are more difficulties in cross-religion relationship compared to others. Hence, her family must help her to understand that because they CARE for her.
July 28th, 2006 at 6:34 pm
You know the best thing that would come out of this marriage?
The kids would not grow up and have the same mentality as ’sexyman’ there.
“You spend so much efforts and love to bring her up, only to see her get married to someone of a religion who will cause trouble to you and your family.”
This is the kind of racial insensitivity shit that we don’t need. As a wise man once said, racial integration begins in the bedroom.
July 28th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
The stupid islamic laws of the country are forcing the hand, no one else.
Anyone should be able to marry anyone without converting.
Because 95% of conversions are on paper only, they don’t actually change faith, or believe in their new found religion
They do it because they are in love and want to marry that person.
So why bother, it’s all fake anyway?
Ridiculous draconian regulations.
July 28th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
I have visualised such a scenario before (when a distant cousin is involved in similar situation); but since it has not happened to one “within” my immediate family, I did not have to deal with one. And frankly until that truly happens — any opinions I give now don’t hold. It’s all so easy and feel good to voice this and that on a THEORETICAL basis. When ONE is confronted with a real situation involving one’s close relative eg sibling, son/daughter, people should just hold their tongue and let the “immediate” family deal with the reality. My 3sen’s worth and it’s not because I think it;s sensitive that I won’t give my opinion, but any hard decison involving FAITH is truly a personal and real angel/devil you confront in reality. (As an aside, that issue involving MENJ, minishorts, remember? It taught me an INvaluable lesson what NOT to touch in Blogsowrld! Previously I was hesitant only.)
July 28th, 2006 at 8:59 pm
Happened to drop by…I have close relatives who married Muslims, and all I can say is that it’s complicated, and definitely there will be a lot of heart-wrangling.
The decision is definitely the girl’s, since it is her happiness; but the family being Christian (from what I know) see it is having eternal consequences and ramifications. I guess, what complicates matters here also is that legal issues involved (in our country) when one marries (property etc) and later if the marriage unfortunately fails (if it works, then all is well; if not, legal rights and recompense, and possibility of future mattiage gets a bit difficult).
Perhaps, it would be good that your friend’s sister takes time to ‘chill’, take time to really think over the relationship, even while letting the parents get to know the guy and the guy’s family.
(Hope I am not being too kaypoh, because I have seen how these things can turn out, for good or for bad - it all depends)
July 28th, 2006 at 9:02 pm
She should have her own choice to make and make do with what issues that arise. I’m sick and tired of people judging and misintepreting things like this just because he’s muslim and she’s some other religion especially a christian.
You know what? Vince is right by saying that the kids would grow up without the bigotry and sheer stupidity of those that are too parochial and narrow to see that it’s just about what two people decide from themselves. Why the hell should you want to throw in the whole damn belief system into the equation?
July 28th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
“Why the hell should you want to throw in the whole damn belief system into the equation?”
Because the belief system aka the official religion threw itself into our lives ?
Just as DigiSniper said, the stupid laws in this country forced our hands.
To completely ignore it’s ramifications is burying one’s head under the sand.
July 28th, 2006 at 9:17 pm
“the kids would grow up without the bigotry and sheer stupidity”
As opposed to growing up denigrating the infidels and having even bigger bigotry that anyone who wish to marry them (guy or girl) must convert to their religion ?
Sheer hypocrisy. They think they don’t have a problem because they are already BLIND to the BIGOTRY and STUPIDITY they were born with and entitled to under the laws of this country.
People from those side of the fence tend to think they’re never wrong.
If they’re without bigotry and stupidity, then WHY not these CHILDREN convert to other religions then and go against the law they were borned with ?
Some of you really make nonsense arguments.
You accuse me of seeing things only my way, but you idiots are equally guilty of the same stones you cast.
July 29th, 2006 at 1:16 am
We almost had a ‘convert’ in my family too but what my parents did was to encourage her to find out more about the religion. That’s the condition. No strings attached, just find out more and decide for herself.
She did and she made her choice.
Your friend’s ‘youngest’ sister here, it very similar, ‘Young’ is the keyword. So you might wanne suggest what my parents did.
July 29th, 2006 at 2:00 am
The laws of our country notwithstanding, I wonder how a parent can rather disown/lose their child instead of rejoicing in having gained another son/daughter (and future grandchildren)?
If a son from a staunch Taoist family marries a Christian girl and converts… the same emotional tension would arise: will he go through with the rites at a parent’s funeral or who will take care of the ancestor tablets when the parents are gone? Even a simple matter like the refusal to hold joss sticks at a CNY gathering can cause a lot of hurt and grief. Different situations, similar sentiments. Family dynamics are hard enough to navigate, pride and prejudice will only perplex matters.
If faced with a similar situation, I’d make sure the person fully understands the consequences of his/her decision to convert, what it means for the family and the legal aspects of the conversion. I would never advocate the severence of family ties because that simply solves nothing. Being family, we can only advise to our best capacity but ultimately it is his/her choice. Isn’t that what making decisions as an adult mean? That you would have to be responsible for the outcome of your own choices and lead the life you choose?
July 29th, 2006 at 2:02 am
At least the Moslems got it right on circumcision. It helps their wives get more satisfied. Those sea-monkeys look delicious. Yummy!
July 29th, 2006 at 2:30 am
Carina, there’re bigger ramifications than conversions between Taoists and Christians as opposed to that between others and the state religion.
It’s not just cultural, but legal as well.
Imagine your son who marries a Muslim girl, and converts.
Fine, if we ignore all the cultural implications, lets get into the legal ones.
All the properties owned by the son are subjected to Muslim Inheritance laws where non-muslims are discriminated against and the interpretation is at the whims of the Malaysian version. Here I quote from the necf.org.my website:
”
Inheritance
Upon death, the inheritance of a Muslim convert must be administered according to Islamic law. The inheritance will go to family members who are Muslim. If the family members are not Muslims, they will not get the deceased’s property. If the deceased had willed his inheritance to his non-Muslim family members, only one-third of the inheritance can be distributed to them. The rest must be administered according to Islamic law.
”
The laws are in contradictory to the common state law and it is this conflict that is causing misery to many who are trapped in this situation.
That and the forced conversion of children of the convert as well, which is denied the right to freedom of choice an religion.
”
Religious status of minor children (below 18 years)
Most states have provisions in their administration of Islamic law enactments to define a Muslim as a person who has at least one Muslim parent.
Hence, one of the legal consequences of a person converting to Islam is that his/her children also automatically become Muslims, even if the non-Muslim parent objects.
”
Many do not see that the process is a very selfish one when a non-muslim son converts and marries his muslim wife. In the process, he hurts his parents and his offsprings and future descendants.
He denies the rights of his children in the process when he does this in a country such as Malaysia.
From a Chinese family perspective, that is the end of the family bloodline.
The hope of carrying the family name/bloodline (which is very important to chinese culturally) is obliterated in the process because the children/grandchildren has automatically disowned the parents in the eyes of the Malaysian Islamic law.
It’s not parents who want to disown their children. But the very act of converting to that religion, causes their son to automatically disown their parents.
It is a very serious issue for a typical Chinese family where continuation of family bloodline and name has always been a very strong traditional believe. That believe is mucked with and interfered, and hence the incompatibility with our way of life.
Then there’s the issue if one day, the husband and wife couple is killed in a crash or accident, then what happens to the children ?
By right, in any reasonable country with even the most basic human rights, the custody of the children will go to their grandparents or relatives. But because they’re Muslims and the relatives are not, the grandparents will be denied of their grandchildren’s custody, according to this law:
”
Guardianship, care and custody of children
If the children are deemed Muslims, then their custody will be determined by Islamic law. Most states provide for the Syariah Court to disqualify the mother from hadanah (right to custody) if she is a non-Muslim and pass custody to other persons; and that she is entitled to hadanah if she is a Muslim.
”
Now, think about it people. Tell me how this is NOT mucking around with your way of life.
July 29th, 2006 at 3:11 am
I would like to point out something froma different perspective. If you are seriously thinking of falling in love, and even think as far as setting up a happy family with your future partner, let’s do it right from the start.
I am not trying to be old fashion here. Let’s agree with a few things. Do you place your parents above all things else? If you don’t, you can forget about building a happy family and you can stop reading this.
If your parents do not agree with your decisions, would you still go ahead with it and in the result, making them worry and unhappy? If you go against their wishes, and follow your emotion, don’t you think you are neglecting your duty as a child to your parents?
If you can’t even obey your parents’ wishes, you can forget about forming a basic family on your own, or even try your hands in parenting your future children, since you yourself can’t even set a good example for your future generation. How do you expect your children to respect you when you don’t even respect your own?
You know, children these days has this idea where they think they are way smarter than their parents. Maybe they are right, academically, but you and I know better, the generations now are more morally corrupt than ever. They act with emotion, without taking practicality into account.
One should first get their priority right. Your parents should always come first in all your decision makings. Failing to do so, you will just be putting yourself into an unnecessary cycle of troubles.
Love is a state of emotion. Obeying your parents is your responsibility as their children. You can live without the former, but remember, without the latter, you would never even taste the sweetness of love in the first place.
July 29th, 2006 at 8:38 am
please do not have children if you think the purpose of having children is to raise obedient robots who do not have a mind or life of their own. respecting and placing your parents above all else does not mean having to do everything they ask you to (or not do everything they ask you not to). extreme example - if you parents asked you to go jump off a cliff would you do it? until and unless you have been in the situation of falling in love with someone of a different religion (i mean REALLY in love) you will not understand.
sexyman, i’m sorry that you have yet to experience the feeling of such deep love that you would be willing to do anything (ANYTHING!) to be with the person you love.
and, for what its worth i personally know of two people in malaysia who did it the other way - the muslim became a christian.
July 29th, 2006 at 11:05 am
I don’t know how to start this about Christian converting to Muslim. As a Christian, she should know what is Christian all about. In our bible, it is stated that we need to stand on our rock and being a Christian is not only about religion. We believe our way to eternal life (heaven) only through Jesus Christ. This was the words He promised before got resurrected. Even in the 10 commandments, we’re to be obedient to parents, unless it’s not God’s wishes. I guess she isn’t a real Christian (only by name). Else, she won’t do these to her parents. Love for a lifetime is not that important than being for eternal life (giving up heaven and wanted to be in hell?). My 2 cents.
July 29th, 2006 at 11:35 am
WATERKISSES, I’M CHRISTIAN TOO… but hoh, the reason i’m Christian … is not primarily because I want to be in heaven. Now since you’re at it, I’ll make it clear here that I cannot for the love of God understand why so many Christian preachers preach ‘heaven’ as the main point of Christianity. you may condemn me for not being ‘typical’ and a ‘right christian’ but i think more importantly, it is very very important for Christians not to JUDGE another person (especially a fellow x-tian) and bestow labels unto another.
I had a x-tian friend who said this to a non-x-tian friend, ‘you want to go to hell? it’s up to you.’
I’ll put it out this way, you know, the way so many x-tians like us tell them stories of heaven and hell, I think most non-xtians would rather go to hell. sure it’s exclusivity, and all that, but come on, don’t tell me THE ONLY REASON WHY YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN is because you want to go to heaven. that makes the whole choice to believe very trivial, and well, selfish.
July 29th, 2006 at 11:40 am
SEXYMAN: * you deserve a comment directed to you alone*
I’ll put it to you this way. As much as the child was selfish to think of her ownself only in her process of deciding what she wanted to do for her life, if her parent was like you, i’d call the parent also selfish and patriachal, NOT to mention traditional to pull ranks and resort to casting out offspring and rushing to seek solace in ‘traditional’ values.
did the father’s way of bringing up his child, failed? Maybe, if his ultimate goal to to keep her firmly rooted in religious and cultural values. But maybe his goal was to allow his children the freedom to choose, and the wisdom to make their choices sensibly. In this case, because i know this person, I’ll attest to this, hers was a right choice, of decision. So it was prompted by love, but the two of them have been together and apart for many many many years, and this was the final decision they have made. And she chose to believe in islam of her own accord.
I’m heaving a sigh of relieve for my friend, that their parents are nothing like you.
apart from that, since you’ve said that you wanted to say your final piece up above, pray, tell me why, do you have to keep repeating your opinions so many times?
July 29th, 2006 at 11:57 am
Why so sensitive about christian converting to Islam?? I don’t see there’s a problem here. My aunt is married to a Muslim who’s a kelantanese. Living happily and no such relegious struggles. We are not malaysian if we opposed to these type of marriages. That’s 3rd world mentality
July 29th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
if i were her father, i’d be heartbroken…
i’d try to dialogue with her about christianity and islam, the similarities and the differences… try to persuade her not to leave the faith.
but in the end if she still chooses to marry him, i don’t think i could disown her (or worse still murder her, as sexyman implies… that’s just downright evil). she’s my daughter, and i love her. i will keep the lines of communication open and try my best to let her know that i really do care for her and want the best for her, no matter who she marries.
but oh the grief… to have ‘lost’ my daughter in this way… as someone pointed out, it’s a choice with eternal consequences!
to those who can’t understand why some christians make a big deal out of this, it’s not that we have a 3rd-world mentality or whatever (ok maybe some of us do, but not all… sorry la for those of us who do). it’s just that in knowing Jesus, we have found Life, love, hope, and joy that is so real and so sweet, that we would not lose it for the world.
somebody commented to sexyman that he’s to be pitied cos he’s never experienced a love so great that he would do anything to be with the one he loves. some of us christians are so heartbroken over situations like this precisely because we have found such a love, and we would do anything - forgo anything, even marriage - for the sake of the One we love.
please, forgive us for sometimes imposing our views on you. it’s kind of like when you’ve eaten that delicious, tasty, succulent, wonderful chicken rice in some corner shop and you go and tell your friends about it. it’s not that you want to impose your opinions of chicken rice on them, but simply that it’s so yummy you have to let them know about it. in the same way, knowing Jesus is so good to us that we long for everyone we care for to know Him too.
may God bless us all. =)
July 29th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
If I’m not terribly mistaken, the punishment for exiting from your religion is hell.
So if her father really believed in his religion he would never let his daughter throw her soul away for eternity. Just as he wouldn’t like her to be murdered or tortured.
It seems sad that invisible, unprovable beliefs can take importance over things we know are true like sincere love of one’s partner and family.
July 29th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
Here’s my two-bits worth.
It’s very difficult to get a truly objective view point when it comes to conversion to Islam, because of the hightened emotions associated with the subject, particularly in Malaysia at this juncture.
Many mainstream Muslims, for example, would even go as far to say that mere discussion of such issues, even on a personal or hypothetical level, constitutes an infringement on their rights to practice their religion (selfish, but true).
On the other hand, non-Muslims see the one-way ticket, no turning back nature of conversion to be unfair. To me, it’s perfectly reasonable to think so.
The fact remains that there is Islam, then there is Islam as is practiced here, and THEN the legislative aspect of Islam, vis-a-vis Malaysia. In other words, it’s actually a very complex scenario, involving not only religion per se, but also cultural, political and legal considerations.
I have my own personal views, which are very much different from the mainstream Muslim view, and for that I have been labelled a kafir (someone who refuses to submit him/her self to God), border-line apostate, a liar, etc. Which, to me, are just labels - I make my own peace with God.
Minishorts - in the case of your friend’s sister, in all fairness, she should realize that as long as she is in Malaysia, once she converts, there’s no turning back. In other words, she has to go into this knowing full well that it’s something she will have to adopt for the rest of her life (unless she decides to leave the country, of course). It’s the reality of things in Malaysia, unfair as it may be.
By the way, as far as my understanding of Islam goes, her parents shall forever be her parents. Conversion doesn’t change that fact and the level of respect, love and honor they deserve from her as parents. Nobody has to disown anyone.
And finally, based on your last comment, her decision HAS been an informed one. And so, I wish her all the very best, and wish her all the happiness she hopes for.
July 29th, 2006 at 2:28 pm
‘Bullshit lah, the best for me. You just want me to follow and play by your rules. So that you’d feel good. If you want the best for me you wouldn’t be arguing so much with me. You would let me try things out on my own, make my own decisions, and walk on my own learning curve.’
Minishorts, I couldn’t agree with you more. For years I’ve been trying to reason with my mom and fight for my own personal freedom but many times she throw me with the statement, “We as parents want the best for you. You’re still young you don’t know what you want”.
But do parents really know then?
Sexyman, you’re being at the extreme end. Religion itself has nothing wrong. I’m sure both Islam and Christianity meant good but Islam has been interpreted wrongly, especially in the case of Malaysia.
Many Syariah Laws in Malaysia do not protect the Malay women, but in actual Quran it was stated that men and women should be equal.
By marrying a Muslim do not equal to bringing disgrace to the family and no father should disown a daughter because of that. It is because of people with mentality like yours that China has so many unwanted female babies because girls do not carry the family name when they get married in the future.
What’s important of the name when a daughter have to spend the rest of her life living in misery and unhappiness? It’s just but a name.
Like a friend of mine said, “Don’t blame the players, blame the rules.” The girl have every right to decide whom she is to marry because the man of her choice will be the one she’s spending the rest of her life with. Not her parents. She can make her own decision as long as she takes responsibility for her decision.
yc, “Obeying your parents is your responsibility as their children.” But being obedient and a fool is just a thin line apart. Chinese says, ???,???.
July 29th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
This discussion only confirms one thing. Women are driven by emotions and will do anything for love.
No wonder so many kena chiak so easily by playas.
This is beyond just any religion.
The major difference is Islam has it’s own set of laws that are not compatible with modern human rights and civil law.
But yet many refuses to see the major difference it brings and only wants to see it from the point of LOVE.
LOVE is NOT everything people.
I don’t want to stereotype women but too bad from the way this discussion is going, it shows women are suckers for love.
As to why I am still here Minishorts, right I promised not to comment further, but the utter stupidity and ridiculousness of some response in this discussion just begs a reply from me especially those directed at me. *LOL*
I’ll try not to drag this topic any further.
My stereotype of women stays firmly implanted now more than ever.
That you can do anything to women and manipulate them anyway you wish as long as you think they’re getting L-O-V-E.
Even to the point of upsetting, hurting, betraying their parents using L-O-V-E.
Pathetic creatures that can no longer be reasoned with the moment L-O-V-E steps into the picture.
Nobody has so far commented on my comment 27 because you all know it’s TRUE and uncontestable and many situations could come up that could make it even more complicated, based on those feudal discriminatory laws, instead some chose to attack me in the name of LOVE.
July 29th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
“A rose by any other name is still a rose”.
At the end of the day, we forget one thing. It is *her* life and *her* choice. *She* is the one who will be with the person of her choosing not her parents or anyone else.
When children grow up, we have to allow them to make their own choices, live their own life. As parents to adult children, their duty is to advice, encourage and support their children.
If there is one thing I learnt about Christianity and about Chinese culture, it is this: To be like Christ and that blood is thicker than water.
…
I have this to ask to everyone:
WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH BEING A MUSLIM? By saying that children of these marriages come out being Muslims and that it’s a negative point, we are saying that being a Muslim is BAD.
Christians on this blog who have pointed out that Heaven is awaiting you and that you’re doing something wrong by absconding to another faith, I ask you this:
Since when did Christ judge Buddhists, Muslims and people of other faiths? Since when was Christianity just all about going to Heaven and being rewarded?
…
Sexyman,
I find your remarks indicative of a lot of MCPs in today’s world who resort to “Women will do anything in the name of love” just to prove a rebutted point. The equivalent would be me saying that ALL men think with their other head and that’s why this country cannot go anywhere. Pity you cannot see beyond the stereotype you have created.
Btw, it’s not that no one wants to argue with you; they just find the point totally moot because it would be like giving a swine pearls.
July 29th, 2006 at 6:07 pm
You people are all nuts. Which God taught you to look down on other people??
Be a hippie like John Lennon, can?
Imagine there’s no Heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will be as one
July 29th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
reading your recent post kinda hit a nerve. I am the Muslim girl who wanted someone to convert for me; therefore i admit, my post may be a lil biased.(not that it worked out
) I understand minishorts point that the non-halal restaurant may have been the best place for the conversation, because unfortunatly Malaysian laws can be a lil ‘weird’.
the thing is, i think that a family should not disown a child because of his or her choice of religion.Though religion is important, isnt the family bond and love more important. Too me, sexymans point of of view is a little harsh; kinda like the old saying ‘cut your nose to spite your face’. Yes the change of religion would be a shock to the family, but to loose a family member totally would hurt a lot more.
thats my in-put as a malaysian
July 29th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
u r ugly. ur bf is ugly. do not fake yourself by putting a alluring webpage name. asshole. again. u r ugly. go get a life. wasted my time js clicking on ur page.
July 29th, 2006 at 10:45 pm
Just my 2 cents. Just as a notice, the writing below is not casual-reading-friendly. I hope you’re interested.
This lady might believe in ‘romantic love’ being THE priority. (Our media, from ‘Disney’ to ‘The OC’ encourage this idea anyways.)
*When i say romantic love, I do not minimize its significance. I’m just trying to specifically refer to ‘romantic love,’ and not ‘love’ as in the general meaning of ‘love.’*
Yes I believe that everyone is in charge of her own life, and it is her decision. That is first and foremost. However.. there are things that we must take into account.
She has every right to make ‘romanctic love’ her priority. However, I believe it would be best to encourage and remind her in three things in a good and caring spirit:
1) Is there anything else that is important to you? Does love take ultimate precedence?
2) Did you think about what your decision might entail?
3) Will you take responsibility when the consequences arise?
Here are my thoughts on the contrary to Minishort’s:
‘Bullshit lah, the best for me. You just want me to follow and play by your rules. So that you’d feel good. If you want the best for me you wouldn’t be arguing so much with me. You would let me try things out on my own, make my own decisions, and walk on my own learning curve.’
To be honest and frank, I find this excerpt disturbing. I hope you read on in good spirits though. My interest is not solely to criticise and glorify myself.
‘Bullshit lah, the best for me. You just want me to follow and play by your rules.’ - Why so defensive? Maybe the family genuinely cares for her. In fact, I’ll put my money on the idea that they really do care. Imagine if your daughter thought in that manner.
‘If you want the best for me you wouldn’t be arguing so much with me.’
- If you cared about your brother John (for example), you would want to make sure that he knows what he is doing if you see him dancing with knives in a performance. You would argue with him, “Oie you sure you know what you are doing? Have you done this before? Did you think about this?”
You care, therefore you argue.
‘You would let me try things out on my own, make my own decisions, and walk on my own learning curve.’
- You see a child taking drugs. What will you do? You would feel like telling him,
“Dude, that’s gonna hurt you man.”
“Heh.”
“Everyone knows that that drug will kill you slowly.”
“Heh, I don’t care about my life.”
A few months later, he falls in love with a girl, and he wants to live. By then, his life is torn by addiction. He regrets.
We people, are as such. We need guidance, introspection and really sit down, think when making a serious decision. Sometimes we need to forsake gratification. Sometimes we need to prioritize. Saying, “f*ck it, come what may, love just feels so right..” very often ultimately f*cks you back in the a*s.”
Denying yourself, especially in love, is easier said than done, I know. Perhaps that’s why people guard their hearts. IMO, proper men and women do not let themselves fall in love too easily. We are adults of this wonderful world. We understand ourselves especially in what we desire, and we govern ourselves well.
Christians argue that if you truly want to govern yourself in an even better way, look to God. And I cannot agree more, given most religions. Let me give you an example: My dad is cheating on my mom, in the name of love.
Guess what, love is a chemical reaction in the brain that lasts for about 12 months (http://www.physorg.com/news8568.html
July 29th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
Just my 2 cents. Just as a notice, the writing below is not casual-reading-friendly. I hope you’re interested.
Here are my thoughts on the contrary to Minishort’s:
‘Bullshit lah, the best for me. You just want me to follow and play by your rules. So that you’d feel good. If you want the best for me you wouldn’t be arguing so much with me. You would let me try things out on my own, make my own decisions, and walk on my own learning curve.’
To be honest and frank, I find this excerpt disturbing. I hope you read on in good spirits though. My interest is not solely to criticise and glorify myself.
‘Bullshit lah, the best for me. You just want me to follow and play by your rules.’ - Why so defensive? Maybe the family genuinely cares for her. In fact, I’ll put my money on the idea that they really do care. Imagine if your daughter thought in that manner.
‘If you want the best for me you wouldn’t be arguing so much with me.’
- If you cared about your brother John (for example), you would want to make sure that he knows what he is doing if you see him dancing with knives in a performance. You would argue with him, “Oie you sure you know what you are doing? Have you done this before? Did you think about this?”
You care, therefore you argue.
‘You would let me try things out on my own, make my own decisions, and walk on my own learning curve.’
- You see a child taking drugs. What will you do? You would feel like telling him,
“Dude, that’s gonna hurt you man.”
“Heh.”
“Everyone knows that that drug will kill you slowly.”
“Heh, I don’t care about my life.”
A few months later, he falls in love with a girl, and he wants to live. By then, his life is torn by addiction. He regrets.
We people, are as such. We need guidance, introspection and really sit down, think when making a serious decision. Sometimes we need to forsake gratification. Sometimes we need to prioritize. Saying, “f*ck it, come what may, love just feels so right..” very often ultimately f*cks you back in the a*s.”
Denying yourself, especially in love, is easier said than done, I know. Perhaps that’s why people guard their hearts. IMO, proper men and women do not let themselves fall in love too easily. We are adults of this wonderful world. We understand ourselves especially in what we desire, and we govern ourselves well.
Christians argue that if you truly want to govern yourself in an even better way, look to God. And I cannot agree more, given most religions. Let me give you an example: My dad is cheating on my mom, in the name of love.
Guess what, love is a chemical reaction in the brain that lasts for about 12 months (http://www.physorg.com/news8568.html
July 29th, 2006 at 11:04 pm
argh my post… got cut short.. lol, i had more to say.. yeah I’ve got too much time on my hands
July 29th, 2006 at 11:04 pm
Think about this hard. Think about what this entails. The loving feelings last for 12 months. What does this mean? We divorce and hop from person to person? - After that 12months, you’re on your own to rekindle the flames. You make the choice.
This is why we have commitment.
With introspection comes wisdom. With introspection comes the knowledge that ‘the hearts of men are deceitful’ - this doesn’t mean that we are evil. Our thinking nature simply work in such a way that we ‘deceive’ ourselves for we have a limited consciousness and we act only on ideas that we hold in our limited consciousness. When you’re angry, the subconscious automatically feeds in certain angry thoughts into the conscious mind. When you’re sad, the subconscoius feeds in sad thoughts. When you’re in love, the subconscoius feeds in love into the mind. Your conscious mind fills with information, and you react to the emotions that arise. (Experiment with yourself, you’ll find this to be true.)
We cannot hold all these thoughts in our minds at once, for that would make us crazy. Therefore, the hearts of men are deceitful. (Read Jeremiah 17:9-10) We are not entirely logical creatures.
In the context of this lady who married herself to a Muslim man: ‘When you’re in love, the subconscoius feeds in thoughts of love into the mind.’ Your mind will remember about how sweet he is… how handsome he is… how he’s such a great guy… Its cool and all.. but make sure that you think enough to ensure that you’re not blinding yourself to outside things that might be equally important. Step out of the lovely clouds, and take a seroius look at the decision you are about to take. Go back in by all means afterwards.
With that said, I am only a 19years old. I hope that doesn’t cheapen my ideas.
God - whoever he may be, may he bless us all. May love be our prerogative.
I had time on my hands, so I figured I’d participate in this discussion. Cognizantly choosing ignorance for bliss = selfishness, and it hurts the soul.
Love,
George of Malaysia
July 29th, 2006 at 11:26 pm
I have only begun to read the comments and stopped at “sexyman”’s. I’m curious, really. I am dating a Muslim guy now and I am perfectly happy with him and so is everyone else. BUT I’m beginning to wonder, do you even understand the religion well enough or are you just writing up your comments based on what you see and hear but not what you read and understand?
Would you define my action to marry my boyfriend in the future as an act of disowning my father? F.Y.I, it is quite rude for you to say that Islam is a religion that brings nothing but problems to the family of another religion with the shallow knowledge that you have of it. AND, if you read and understood the laws, it is only in our country do we face these kinda complicated scenarios (if you choose to think of it as complicated), so try not to generalise so much. Lastly, I am so glad you are not my father. Because if you were, I would gladly disown you.
From my tone, you can see that I am pretty annoyed. And any personal attacks on me or my family and anyone involved would very much be welcomed because it would only show nothing but sheer stupidity and ignorance of you as a person.
I will continue reading the rest of the comments and perhaps, I might be able to share a thing or two of what I have learnt from this rship of mine (if i find that its worth being shared)
July 29th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
i like you sexyman, i especially admire your… what i should call it, delusion with your attractiveness… you know I\’m tall, that\’s why i delude myself by calling myself minishorts. maybe it\’s the same with you, you\’re not very sexy, hence the moniker \’sexyman\’. well it works only for a while.
up till now, it has not worked very well. i\’m sure most people would agree. first it was religion, that it quite okay. and then you come along and say \’women are suckers for love.\’
hmmm… well, some men are suckers for power, or winning for the sake of winning. in the end, they forget what they\’re really fighting for. what is your battle, sexyman? with the system? with people who will not believe with you? or with your own needs to stand out no matter what?
well congratulations, you\’ve been a very fine victor. Here\’s a virtual hug as an award for exemplary behavior.
George: I think you being 19 makes your ideas valuable. if you\’re 49 and you come up with that, i\’d be surprised. it\’s okay to talk like you do, because technically you ARE a minor. ten years down the road, try telling your mum that you\’re planning to migrate overseas with your wife (if it happens) and see if it\’s that easy to go off.
i think minus the differences, minus the religious misconceptions, there\’s another bigger problem here lah folks. you notice the women are generally more liberal (Hence sexyman\’s painful dismissal of the fairer gender as \’suckers for love), and the ones who speak up so vocally and angrily over families that need none of their concern ,men? Mei, I really think this is not a matter of people caring for other people out of genuine care. this has been an exercise and showcase of how stupid male chauvinism can get, if let loose.
Oh don\’t mind me, men, i don\’t mean anyone. YOU ARE READING A WOMAN\’S BLOG. What did you expect?
July 30th, 2006 at 12:09 am
I think I would just add a lil here…..
If you choose to marry a man/woman who is a Muslim, you really have to think beyond just LOVE. Your parents will always be your parents. A good parent-child relationship will only exist if both sides are willing to respect and understand each other’s opinions and feelings. As what Walski have said earlier, remember, in THIS COUNTRY…once you convert, there’s no turning back (or perhaps there might be, in the future..who knows). At the end of the day, the decision is yours, the life is yours. No one will live it for you and all they can do is just watch and speak of it.
July 30th, 2006 at 12:50 am
Oh Now I get it now Minishorts.. That friend of yours is S-Kay… hahahahahahaha..
Ok Ok Ok.. Thanks for making everything clear now.
gandalfcoder@hotmail.com, you are a fucking idiot who has no respect for privacy, or respect for another person\’s personal space. First of all, my friend is Christian you idiot, while S-kay comes from a free-thinking family. THEY ARE COMPLETELY unrelated to each other. Minus all that, you have taken it upon yourself to insult a complete stranger whose identity I have chosen not to reveal, and in your quest to win this pathetic game of \’who\’s got it more right than the other\’, you\’ve dragged in s-kay into the picture.
You can have your heyday with my blog, have it your way. But anonymity will not protect you forever you idiot.
July 30th, 2006 at 12:57 am
Thanks for ur kindness.. lol
However, I must say these:
Now that I reread your post, Minishorts.. I realize I seem to be missing the general idea :S I apologize.
I offer you a Christian perspective:
I’ll try to sum up what I meant -
Imagine, if you were a devout Christian. That would mean that you KNOW that God exists. And you know that He is the way to salvation. Now imagine that you are happily in your home, eating dinner, then your daughter says she wants to become a muslim for the man she loves. What comes to mind?
“OMFG, my daughter might not go to heaven!”
OR…
“OMFG everyone is going to make fun of me” ?
You’d be concerned as a parent. It has little to do with ego. You would fear for her soul.
Minishorts, I’m under the impression that you are mentally ready to accuse her father/brother of male chauvinism haha.. forgive me
— Further explanation —
Christians believe that if you marry to a man/woman of another religion, it is VERY HARD to “grow in Christ.”
July 30th, 2006 at 1:01 am
no i’m not going to accuse her brother. i’d accuse you and sexyman of idiocy
mahai… i think because most ultra traditional chinese men behave like sexyman, ISLAM becomes a better religion. in her case, she’s got no problems bringing up her kids to be muslims. now if they choose to be murtad later in life, she will have her own set of problems to handle.
but for now, stupid strangers like you should stop using my blog as a punching back to voice your disgust at things that DO NOT bother you at all.
you guys pick up the bo chap attitude, but apply it in all the wrong places.
July 30th, 2006 at 1:03 am
….and some members of the ‘rakyat’ think that we as a country are ready to discuss shit like that openly. With these kind of assholes around randomly picking a fight with another religion, racial riots are bound to happen.
Like I said, this country is not mature enough to have open forums bullshit. Everybody should just shut up and sit at home.
July 30th, 2006 at 1:10 am
If I may be given a few minutes of attention, I don’t mean to do crappy evangelism here.. but if you free thinkers out there want to learn more about why these Christians are the way they are, http://www.christiananswers.net is an incredible resource.
Sigh.. I can imagine what you critics can say already, but there is are explanations to why Christians believe this is so. Very solid explanations that we can all learn. If you didn’t already know, the world’s top scholars and scientists in the past and the present are Christians. Suggesting that the Christian faith is unfounded implies that you believe that all these respected people are dumber than you. (I challenge you to Google for info.)
July 30th, 2006 at 1:14 am
sigh: SIGH indeed.
(I’m closing this chain because this topic has gone out of hand. Sigh. I WILL NOT ALLOW PROTECTION OF A RELIGION THAT NEEDS NO PROTECTION SIMPLY BECAUSE THE RELIGION THAT IS VICTIMIZED HERE IS NOT CHRISTIANITY.
Yes we should care for another Christian’s plight, but we must not forget also that we are humans, Malaysians, and we do not live in a community that is fenced off from the others.)
Now everyone will shut the fuck up because I say so.