We are not retards.
Filed under General
I'm terrified of fundamentalists. Because they go by a 'it's my way or the highway' principle. That makes them terribly difficult people to deal with. Now, putting my declaration here in context, I have to quote Bukan Islam Liberal:
What kind of retard would ever consider such a religion and embrace it as their way of life, to the extent that they are willing to leave the beautiful ad-Deen which is Islam for the reckless pursuits of a man-made religion?
I am deeply insulted, because by your definitions and quotes, I am your kind of retard who has embraced the reckless pursuits of a man-made religion.
Bad enough that the whole Lina Joy issue has escalated to such heights, today some people have gone straight to the police and prosecuted the entire church in the process. Seeking Justice, they call it.
In the process, seeking justice also has to include the name calling. 'Religion of retards', 'agama dongengan'.
On Your Labels
This is my blog and I will say this here now:
WE ARE NOT RETARDS.
CHRISTIANITY is NOT an AGAMA DONGENGAN.
I'M A 6TH GENERATION MALAYSIAN CHINESE AND I AM EVERY BIT AS MALAYSIAN AS YOU ARE, EVEN THOUGH OUR SKIN COLOUR AND OUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ARE IN CONTRADICTION WITH EACH OTHER.
I don't understand why you're so generous with your vicious labels. Maybe somewhere in your history of being in this fallen world, someone came into your life and taught you that being prominently opinionated and dogmatic about your principles in living life by God are important and necessary steps to future seal your place in your Paradise.
Or maybe you're scared that Your God thinks you're an infidel just for being polite to people who do not think the same as you do. Maybe you need to show-off the the physical bits of being religious so that you will not be accused as being untrue to your religion. Maybe you need to label believers among your own religion with blasphemous words, so that God will take notice of you and grant you favours. Maybe you feel that you have a duty on earth and right now your special duty is to ensure that people who misunderstand Islam get their facts right. Your way.
I suppose people like you would have your reasons for behaving like such ignorant, unyielding blockheads. In your book, we're the crazy ones, the ones who don't get what it's supposed to be like. So you guys say, 'Go ahead, its not your concern, this is our call, stay out.'
Usually, I shut up because I choose to respect your principle. It's simple, almost acceptable, even if its tinged with lunacy. Your life, your choices, the way you choose to practise your beliefs, has nothing to do with me, and rest assured I am not about to tamper in your life. I strongly believe that you have a right to behave the way you want to behave.
But I CANNOT just sit and accept when you heap slander on my beliefs, my rights, my community, MY COUNTRY.
On Conversion
Many families have had to suffer the 'shame' of having family members choosing a religion that is not of the handed-down type. Every time someone chooses to convert, he makes a difficult decisionthat will inevitably affect the people around him. All converts to any religion would have felt this 'persecution', and the whole conversion process is a painful but necessary process, because they come with unneeded, illogical accusations, words like
'You are displeasing the family by doing this. I have brought you up so many years and now you won't choose to worship a foreign God. YOU ARE BOUND FOR HELL.'
Yet people choose to go through it, after long thought, and that alone is something respectable, and admirable. Because the fact is, the decision to leave a religion is NOT a simple one. Conversion bukanlah sesuatu yang patut dimaki.
Religion has been and always will be a sensitive matter. The struggles we all choose to take in faith are difficult ones, each requiring far more than combinations of responsibility, commitment and dedication. Every believer has his own story of his journey in faith.
In all our stories, we all share the same episode, the one where we have to deal with the sticky situation of being questioned by KPC idiots. Whether you are Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Islam or Atheist for that matter, you will, at least once in your life, have to face someone who is opposed to your beliefs (or the way you practise your beliefs), and that same someone will take it upon himself to teach you 'the right way'.
For me, a brother in Christ told me that 'Yoga' is unChristian, and that I should renounce it, in order to maintain my hold on God and to stay true to His path. A Taoist friend of mine who is dating a Muslim boyfriend has had to deal with persecution from strangers who have all started to care about what happens to her, her family and her offspring if she chooses to marry him. Another Buddhist acquaintance was chided by members of his temple association because he did not contribute enough to the temple fund. I had a Christian friend who was thrown out of his Hindu family just because he chose to believe in Jesus Christ. Kay poh chis, people who require you behave like them or else burn in their version of hell, coming into our lives and giving us a piece of their mind, on the same pretext that 'We care for you, we want you to do it right.' .
All these are real-life experiences that have happened to more than one person in this country. For some people, they get it worse than we do, so bad it's almost traumatic. For them, they get hordes of caring strangers barging into their lives, wanting a piece of the decision making power, and calling out God's name in the process of unlawful intervention. They go to extreme measures, like reporting a place of worship to the police just because it allowed the baptism of an apostate from a religion. Never mind that all that showcase of care and concern was unwelcome in the first place, these people just have to make their point shown you see. The concept of 'Personal Space' simply means nothing to them.
Maybe it's part-and-parcel of what makes Malaysians so 'caring' towards each other.
Ideally, we ought to applaud the intensity of this mob reaction, this united show of 'we-care'. Unfortunately, in some cases, I wish our countrymen knew how to adopt the tidak-apa attitude. See, being tidak-apa is one of the greatest sins of Malaysians. Why, just yesterday morning Mix FM DJs Richard and Ika were lamenting on how Malaysians generally are so tidak-apa about the state of our environment. Leatherback turtles are almost extinct and you see still idiots dumping used plastic bags into the sea.
But, damn it Richard and Ika you guys are wrong. Malaysians are selectively tidak-apa you know? Environment matters? Eh nothing concerning them, so they'll just leave it be. Not even the fact that God entrusted this earth to us to care and cherish and protect will divert their attention to what matters, so the rubbish keeps piling up, the earth can die for all they care.
Instead, what now matters is not the environment, but how another single human being chooses to practise his beliefs. The scenario is this: Who is this Lina Joy? I don't know her personally, but she's making a terrible mistake. I don't want her to go to hell, I'm protecting her and the sovereignity of my religion/race. I'm going to speak up, I'll rally supporters and we will show it to them. Don't mess with us, we have been silent for too long. Someone else has deviated from the true path, hmmm yes this is trespassing into my territory. Does it matter that I should check on my own journey first? No, I want to show I care. We'll throw her out, yes.
Well, 'throwing her out' that's almost fair and dandy, technically, if you follow strictly to the tenets of religion. There was some logicality to the initial outcry, until they went too far and brought it to the police, for God's sake (pun intended), until they started to confuse citizenship rights, racial differences, religious superiority. They went overboard.
On Freedom of Expression
What I'm saying here is, I do respect all the vocal expressions, the speaking up and the open discussion and declarations of love for one's God. This open outcry is phenomenal and by all means we should celebrate this development in free speech. And I can understand the emotional outbreaks, if I were in your shoes, when the status and dignity of my religion is at stake, of course, it's terribly passive to just sit down and shut up? I would choose not to take the tidak-apa road. Yet I would understand and know where to draw the line.
Instead, in your fervour to fight for your rights and requirements, you people come out in your throngs and call believers of Christ 'Retards' and that the religion is an 'Agama Dongengan', you guys pull in race and skin colour into your fight (for God-knows-what), you people keep reminding us that UNFORTUNATELY we're but second-class citizens because we are outnumbered. In doing all these you guys have gone too far, and I CANNOT shut up even if I am a minority, because being minority does not mean you will bully me at will.
So you can applaud all you want the apparent 'failure' of the Article 11 Coalition. You can say that the forums have disappeared and the formations of your forums to oppose this freedom of interfaith discussions in the country are great victories in the name of your God, and maybe, just maybe, we will sit in silence and watch and listen, maybe it is to your pleasure that we behave like meek rabbits in a cage.
But please, do not take it too far. AS FAR AS PEOPLE WILL NOT INSULT YOUR RELIGION, DON'T DO THE SAME UNTO OTHERS, UNTO YOUR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN, WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE OUTNUMBERED.
Do not call us retards, or say that we believe in a fairy tale religion, DO NOT LABEL US as 'YOUR KIND'. Whether you like it or not, we are Malaysians too, and we love this country every bit as much as you do, if not more.
To the person who wrote this line in her statements, 'In any case, as much as YOU have the right to this country, remember, Malaysia is not a Western or Christian country. Your parents or great grandparents moved here knowing that this is a Muslim country and should already know what is in store for them. You got what you bargained (or bought) for.'
I'm not crying foul for being born Malaysian. Please do not confuse the issue. Have you no sense of respect? And when my forefathers set foot and decided to make Malaysia home, there wasn't this issue of which religious group has a bigger stake of ownership in the country. Sure, our land is not-a-free-for-all kind of country, but neither is there a stamp that says 'Muslims' only.
And even if Malaysia is a Muslim country as labelled by you, She is still part of planet Earth, and as citizens of this world it is a requirement of us human beings to accept everybody's differences and strive to live in harmony no matter how difficult tolerating other people's opinions can get.
Congratulations, dudes
Because it seems to matter so much to you, that physical trophy, I'll oblige and congratulate you. Go ahead and claim your glory, now that you are so-called wielding your torch of victory. I'll just leave you with this: You can put a man behind bars, but you cannot change what is in his heart, his mind or his soul. That will always belong to him and him alone.
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August 10, 2006 at 10:56 am
IHMO, I was not to happy when I read his post either. I suggest that you along with your friends make a formal police report against him. We should not condone this kind of irresponsible writing in the blogsphere.
August 10, 2006 at 10:56 am
i respect you for voicing out. christianity, or for the matter of fact, any other religion have always been labeled by them as the wrong religion, and bla bla bla add in all the negative comments here. and dare you speak a thing about their religion, and voila, they’ll be demonstrating against you, or even worse, they’ll hand you a lawsuit or maybe a hand grenade? dont get me wrong, i love my country and i respect their religion, and their practises. i just hope that the same amount of respect can be shown to others who are of different faith, and that they’ll mind their words.
August 10, 2006 at 11:02 am
Aren’t we all afraid of fundamentalists?
That’s why I usually avoid all “forums” where the language is toxic.
August 10, 2006 at 11:21 am
Religion. ANY religion for that matter when put into a point where you start following it in the absence of logic is dangerous. Very very dangerous. It doesn’t matter if it’s Christianity, Islam or even Judaism. The moment you go to those extreme where you disregard everything and everyone else, you’re danger to yourself and to society because it isn’t about God’s rules anymore…its become your rules that you enforce for God.
Delusion like that is rarely a good thing.
August 10, 2006 at 11:25 am
My 2-sen worth :
and God said …
you have locked your minds
and imprisoned them
behind concrete doors
chosen to throw away the key to My House
and while you argue over who I, God, favours
and while you even play at being God
thousands are suffering and dying
from hunger and from wars
it is sad.
August 10, 2006 at 11:27 am
something wrong with pervious post – lines got meshed and cut off
Here’s the original
and God said …
you have locked your minds
and imprisoned them
behind concrete doors
chosen to throw away the keys
and sealed all openings;
you dwell in darkness
yet you say you have the light
it is sad.
the air reeks of animosity and hate
it stifles and suffocates
even as you seek to destroy
all that which you think is different from you
it is sad.
and while you claim to know My Truth
and while you fight over who has the key to My House
and while you argue over who I, God, favours
and while you even play at being God
thousands are suffering and dying
from hunger and from wars
it is sad.
August 10, 2006 at 12:37 pm
I’ve never met Lina Joy so I can’t comment on why she’s changing her religion.
However, I believe no one should be labelled as a “retard” for changing his or her religion.
And I certainly don’t like it when my religion is labelled as man-made and promotes reckless pursuits – as far as I’m concerned, the only thing that’s retarded and man-made in this context is that blog which promotes bigotry.
August 10, 2006 at 12:44 pm
You should think he’s learnt his lesson from the last incident.
I agree with Nizam Zakaria this time – harsher action should be taken against him this time. He’s had plenty chances.
August 10, 2006 at 12:55 pm
“I agree with Nizam Zakaria this time – harsher action should be taken against him this time. He’s had plenty chances.”
Nopes, nothing will happen to him even if you report.
Only insults to official religion will have actions taken.
Insults to other religions are throughly encouraged.
excuseme if you’ve got so much to say please give yourself a name and a valid e-mail address.
All Readers: I will closely monitor the comments in this queue. Please watch your words.
August 10, 2006 at 1:41 pm
Ah…so many people b*hing here about a feature article which I wrote for Bukan Islam Liberal. I haven’t forgotten about the last time, but this time I will stand by what I write. I will NOT be coerced into bending my principles or what I believe about Christianity.
I will be watching Nizam Zakaria. He is certainly one of the “islam Liberal” folks out there. It is not that he does not know that the Quran denounces the beliefs of the Nasara.
And look, mini, I’ve requested the admin of BIL to remove what you had deemed as insulting. Shouldnt that be pointed out to your readers? Why are you inciting/misleading your readers to go against me?
- MENJ
August 10, 2006 at 1:48 pm
Menj: I wonder who’s the one inciting. You are entitled to your beliefs of other people’s religion, but that does not give anyone the right to belittle other people’s religion on a blog/website/forum, especially when we ALL live as MALAYSIANS in a multi-cultural and multi-religious society.
It is very insensitive of you.
August 10, 2006 at 1:50 pm
Mohd Elfie,
I have not singled you out as a bigot, but am addressing the combination of semantics approved by the editorial team behind Bukan Islam Liberal. You as a part of that team, the Editor in Chief you’re treading on dangerous waters.
That said, while you people ‘have every right to go to the police’ on such a matter, every action will have its reaction. This is the way of the world, whether you like it or not, you guys will have to deal with this. There is no way that you can go on saying hurtful things and expect the rest of us to sit calm and smile happy.
August 10, 2006 at 1:56 pm
There is no need to address me by my name, since I do not know you personally. I would prefer if you would address me as MENJ.
The column is pretty much clear, there is no incitement in it and a bit of basic comparative religion knowledge is introduced. Read in its proper context, the article was talking about the issue of apostasy, particularly on an apostate which I do not have to name, as well as recent developments on the case. Therefore there is no need to be an alarmist and incite people to make police reports against me.
- MENJ
August 10, 2006 at 1:58 pm
@frostee: You have claimed “I wonder who’s the one inciting. You are entitled to your beliefs of other people’s religion”.
Who is inciting whom? Ezekiel 23 is in the Bible and so is the Book of Joshua. It is not that I have said: “There is this Book of Jelly-O-Wankers that teaches Christians to kill Muslims”. Now that is incitement. Stating facts about the Book of Joshua and the passage in Ezekiel, 23 is not.
I sometimes wonder why Malaysians are such an emotional lot when it comes to comparative religion issues like this.
- MENJ
August 10, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Menj, is it OK if I call you a retard? Or and infidel for that matter? Would that than be ad-hominem?
You gotta understand that you can’t go around flaming people and not get burnt back.
That’s the way it is man. When I comment on your site, you keep deleting my posts..Or maybe I should start writing racist rhetorics that conform to your agenda like Rachel does?
Then maybe I’ll get through. Oh by the way, for your info – I’m what you would call an “Islam Liberal Heretic”.
August 10, 2006 at 2:11 pm
Insults To Religion
Or how catatonically stupid people can get when don’t even understand what it is they actually believe.
…
August 10, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Hey, my comments at Critical Thoughts got deleted! Shield generators are soon gonna go up, me thinks.
August 10, 2006 at 2:30 pm
Formal police report?I thought cold water was poured on the idea the last time Desiderata called for similar action?And no IP blocks this time around?
August 10, 2006 at 2:34 pm
Because Emmanuel, as much as we feel offended that people can take it up to the PDRM about personal choices (involving choice to belief), we should not behave on an eye-for-an-eye principle. It’s not about pouring ‘cold water’, it’s about behaving in a way we would like people to behave. Because I do not condone the way the coalition has reacted, I will choose NOT to do the things they have done.
August 10, 2006 at 2:39 pm
@mini: ref to “as much as we feel offended that people can take it up to the PDRM about personal choices (involving choice to belief)”
The matter was taken up to the police because the act of proselytisation to the Muslim community is a CRIME under Federal Constitution Article 11 (4) and it is also considered a crime under Section 298A under the Penal Code.
That is all. It seems people have forgotten that this was the reason a police report was lodged against the Church of Our Lady of Fatima, Brickfields.
- MENJ
August 10, 2006 at 2:41 pm
Coaition- hehe like that term, well I don’t understand why MENJ would cackle away and then chicken out when it comes to PDRM.
August 10, 2006 at 2:45 pm
“I don’t understand why MENJ would cackle away and then chicken out when it comes to PDRM.”
I think these days there are too many n00bs on the WWW who do not understand that on the Internet, opinions and freedom of expression is guaranteed and one can never lodge a police report against another just because one dislikes what was being said. I have read many nasty things being said about Islam over the past few weeks before the Article 11 forums was stopped by the Prime Minister. You dont see me go about making police reports against these bloggers (Lucia Lai, Howsy and Xypre…to name a few) because I am not a newbie to the WWW and I know that here, in the lawlessness of cyberspace, OPINIONS ARE FREE.
- MENJ
August 10, 2006 at 2:47 pm
MENJ- So is incitement, and I believe you’re also going against the Google Adsense policy…. the one that says that little part about ‘racism and going against any particular race, religion or country’.
August 10, 2006 at 2:47 pm
MENJ / Mohd Elfie,
If people of other religions say the exact same thing to you and your religion, how would you react? If retaliation is your answer, do you want to see a “war” out of this?
You call believers of another faith as “retard” and shouted “Convert them all!” at the end of your article.
If a Christian says something like that against your religion here in Malaysia, he will be finding himself in trouble with the laws, police, press and ministers.
I want to believe this country still has a fair judiciary system in place and nobody is above the laws. As such, it will be for your own good to learn how to respect others and tone down on your aggresiveness in voicing out criticisms against other religions.
Nobody is interested to start a war with you or anyone of your BIL team. I personally would not bother to waste much time on people like you. But it’s making me feel uneasy at the thought of one day, dangerous people like you (who can’t live with differences) be allowed to assume power in a multi-racial, multi-culture country like ours. We are already seeing this in the products of local universities now.
August 10, 2006 at 2:50 pm
You do realise that MENJ is the emotional, hysterical fanatic here. No need for police report – yet. It is sad that he and his sister, Rachel, are so full of themselves that they have only exposed their gross ignorance of Islam.
It is this kind of rabid fanatacism that is spoiling our beloved country.
Still I must say I have many dear, dear Muslim friends who are beautiful examples of Islam.
August 10, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Sure, but if you bothered to listen to what DS AAB said a few days back- you know about bloggers beware?You are still a blogger right?Noob or no noob?
August 10, 2006 at 2:57 pm
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matthew 5:9-12)
Followers of Christ have been persecuted from the day He was arrested. I used the word “Followers of Christ” because some may call themselves Christians, but their actions do not reflect them as followers of His Word.
I agree with what you have written, minishorts. But sometimes, I feel it is not worth entering into an argument about this. Christ has gone through far more persecution and ridicule than any one of us have gone through. Our security is in the fact that victory has been won on the cross.
11Then he explained to them, “You have been permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others have not. 12To those who are open to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But to those who are not listening, even what they have will be taken away from them. 13That is why I tell these stories, because people see what I do, but they don’t really see. They hear what I say, but they don’t really hear, and they don’t understand. 14This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah, which says:
`You will hear my words,
but you will not understand;
you will see what I do,
but you will not perceive its meaning.
15
For the hearts of these people are hardened,
and their ears cannot hear,
and they have closed their eyes–
so their eyes cannot see,
and their ears cannot hear,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and let me heal them.’[a]
16″But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17I assure you, many prophets and godly people have longed to see and hear what you have seen and heard, but they could not.(Matthew 13:11-17)
Let God deal with this whilst we speak in love. They have used harsh words but let us forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. This is as much as what we can do. God needs no man to defend Him.
August 10, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Taken from Marina Mahathir’s column in Star newspaper (3rd May 2006) for reflection:
A FRIEND was relating how after her daughter had read the Da Vinci Code, she had wanted to read the Bible. Which is not in itself a bad thing except that she was concerned that an impressionable young mind would not be able to differentiate fact from fiction. Also it seemed that perhaps what was needed is a Da Vinci Code-type book for Muslims to spark off the same level of interest in young people in their own religion.
Except that if anyone tried to write a similar thriller based around Islam, they’d be hounded and pilloried and threatened with death, thousands would riot in protest and people who would never have been able to read the book either because they are illiterate or can’t afford it would have died.
Such is the difference between our religions. While there are many Christians who are upset about the book and movie, they are countering it with seminars and other educational events to balance what is being said in the book, even if the book is only fiction. There have not been Da Vinci Code-related riots or deaths thus far. Which speaks volumes for the adherents of the faith.
It would be nice if everyone could brush off similar challenges and say “we are strong enough to withstand any attack”. Even if a book or a movie becomes a runaway hit, compared to the total number of any faith’s followers, the numbers sold can never match it. Books are by nature, in a world where illiteracy is still common, a luxury item. As are American movies, no matter what arguments people make about cultural imperialism.
The point is that people’s impressions of a religion are often related to the behaviour of its adherents. Some religions are thought of as simply kooky because its followers behave strangely. Some are viewed as benign and peaceful because its followers resolutely will not harm a fly.
But when people, supposedly in the name of religion, riot, burn and kill, it can’t help but give the impression of a religion that advocates this, no matter how much we point out that nowhere in religious texts itself does it say you should do this. And unfortunately we get the whole spectrum, from men who publicly insult women on a daily basis without censure to the real crazies.
Recently in New York I had to suffer the embarrassment of having to listen to a Muslim man say to a non-Muslim woman at a forum, “Don’t mess with Muslims, we have nuclear weapons!” There I was trying to dispel stereotypes about violence-prone Muslims and in one fell swoop, this nutcase confirmed every stereotype there was.
******
I love this country. I love the people here. I love the fact that Malaysians can sit, talk, eat together regardless of their differences in religion and races. Why incite hate?
Please do not quote bible verses out of context without understanding or reading the whole bible, yourself.
Please do not associate a few silly people who do not live up to the sacred religion which they claim to practice to the core of that particular religion be it Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.
Please stop preaching and start living the faith which you claim to believe. Which part of your belief system teach you to demean or insult other religions? Action speaks louder than words.
Mini, thanks again for doing what you do, saying what you say over this blog.
It’s a privilege indeed dropping over.
Regards,
Alvin boey
August 10, 2006 at 2:57 pm
minishorts:
i admire your tenacity for re-visiting this men-j terratry/terrotry.
I joined you and mei once very RELUCTANTLY in engaing the likes (I hesiated on using ‘ilk”) of MENJ; i also wrote later saying that I’d never travel that path again.
with certain people, it’s beyond rational discussion, so I’ll just reprise the starting line from my fave poem:
“GO PLACIDLY amid the noise and the haste,
And remember what peace there may be in silence.”
Good luck, GOD (whoever you deem Him to be) BLESS.
August 10, 2006 at 3:11 pm
“If people of other religions say the exact same thing to you and your religion, how would you react?”
How did I react? Good question.
Answer: I created a string of websites dedicated to promote Islam and refute the polemics of the “other side”. One of them is Bismika Allahuma, the other is Bukan Islam Liberal. The rest includes my blog as well as another recently created Islamic blog.
As you can see, I DID NOT resort to police reports, as some n00bs who think they know about the Web after a mere 3 years of blogging do. Any further questions?
- MENJ
August 10, 2006 at 3:12 pm
Good points, mini.
Obviously the rights or the needs of the poor lady Lina is not a factor in this issue, with respect to the people complaining about her conversion. Whether or not she has good reasons to convert to a different religion, or whether or not she is happy before or now doesnt mean a thing to these self professed religious hatters.
All that matters to them is the ‘status’ of the community she is leaving behind (or wants to).
So: Would the religious community prefer to have the unbeliever (of their faith) forced to be within their midst (against her will), or expelled from their community?
1) Isnt it bad for the community to harbour such a traitor?
2) Does it make the community stronger or seem more ‘tolerant’ to be able to hold on to an unbeliever against her will?
3) Will the community be less Islamic if a few of their community members are not Islamic?
4) Why the insecure prediction that the ‘floodgates will open’? Dont the community have enough ‘faith’ that their numbers will be retained?
5) Isnt the religion appealing enough to maintain the community?
6) What exactly is being attacked? Personal freedom, or Religious Authority?
If the religion was as good as what MENJ claims it to be, then I would be confident in ALLOWING apostacy, and let the market forces decide. i.e. people would be free to convert to whatever religion they chose. Why are people like MENJ so insecure? Dont they have confidence in their religion?
August 10, 2006 at 3:14 pm
menj: by your definitions, while the Church is guilty according to Article 11 (4) as so gleefully pointed out, technically everything on BIL and your other websites are written crimes according to Section 298A under the Penal Code
For God’s sake if you want to behave like an infidel, go ahead, just do NOT force the rest of the world to worship your God in your pre-defined manner. That was and still is the whole point of the Article 11 coalition in the first place, a call to uphold the federal constitution, a platform for Malaysians to discuss the very basis of what makes u Malaysians, but some people took it the wrong way. So now, it has ‘failed, been overturned because some people feel that bringing up discussions in that light will cause ‘racial disharmony’. Yet the very same people who claim this have no qualms about telling non-Muslims and non-Malays that they do not belong to this country.
Who is the trespasser here? For your information, my MyKad, is BLUE, and officiates my status as WARGANEGARA Malaysia. That gives me the right to speak up against illogical run-ups to the PDRM over issues you claim injustice against. Technically, Emmanuel and Nizam were right, we CAN do that against BIL, but I’m saying I don’t want to do it because it is STUPID, ILLOGICAL and the act of running to the PDRM with this case in itself is a violation of both laws.
Just to remind the rest of you, what exactly is law that MENJ and his friends are trying to uphold:
(ii) Section 298A of the Penal Code, Act 574 reads: “Whoever by words, either spoken or written, … (a) causes, or attempts to cause, or is likely to cause disharmony, disunity, or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill-will; or (b) prejudices, or attempts to prejudice, or is likely to prejudice, the maintenance of harmony or unity … on grounds of religion … shall be punished with imprisonment for a term of not less than two years and not more than five years”.
Article 11 (4) reads:
Persuading, influencing or inciting a Muslim to leave Islam or to embrace another religion is liable to a fine of RM10,000 or to imprisonment for one year or to both.
One is guilty, but what about the other? Come on, be logical here.
—–
BTW, I’m turning on Comment Moderation because some trolls might take the opportunity to wreck havoc here. It will take some time to see your comments in action, so be patient.
Thanks all.
August 10, 2006 at 3:20 pm
mini:”by your definitions, while the Church is guilty according to Article 11 (4) as so gleefully pointed out, technically everything on BIL and your other websites are written crimes according to Section 298A under the Penal Code ”
I think the law is pretty much clear here that it states that proselytisation to MUSLIMS is not allowed. What the Church of Our Lady of Fatima did was obviously a CRIME.
As law-abiding citizens as most of you are, I am sure, this is pretty much a non-negotiable issue.
- MENJ
August 10, 2006 at 3:39 pm
MenJ: It is acknowledged that what was done is against the law, but in that case, what you write is also against the law too, just as Minishorts pointed out. Now would you call for justice, or seek to apply double standards in this case?
August 10, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Clarification- Not seeking any police action against MENJ.
August 10, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Menj: Nice quotes of the Bible, taken out of context but good effort indeed. It seems you do not care that you had offended many. We here, are requesting you to stop this nonsense.
Like what you are doing, defending your good religion, I too have the right to defend mine. We can all argue till the cow comes home though. I wonder how you would feel if someone calls you a retard based on what you belief. THat’s the point I’m trying to make. YOu are then effectively inciting.
Be more sensitive don’t behave like some MPs who would then resprt to calling other people names.
Get back with the prorgramme dude. =)
August 10, 2006 at 4:44 pm
“Nice quotes of the Bible, taken out of context but good effort indeed.”
You can choose whatever you want to believe, but I have access to Bible commentaries just like anyone else. Correction: just like any Christian scholar would have.
I didnt call Christians in general as “retards”, I call the apostates “retards”. However that phrase has now been removed from the original article, lest it courts unwarranted attention. But I stand by what I believe.
Someone also pasted an article from the heretic liberal, Marina Mahathir. Its not that we do not know who she is, and what her Liberal Islam leanings are.
Best regards.
- MENJ
August 10, 2006 at 6:50 pm
Great post minishorts, especially about Malaysians’ selective tak apa attitude. Very true.. And yes, conversion isn’t as easy as people think.
I’m sure Lina Joy knew she’d be facing such problems before coming out public about converting and the whole IC issue.
MENJ is the kind of ridiculous people you’d meet at least once in your lifetime.
August 10, 2006 at 7:32 pm
You know, all this acrimony occurs when people focus on only the theological aspects of religion. The bigger picture of ANY religion is to teach their followers to do good, and to treat fellow human beings the same as one would like to be treated.
And this is one of the universal truths that permeate throughout all established religions, bar none.
But this is also something many people, of all religions, tend to forget. Instead, the focus is on “why I’m right and the rest of y’all are going to hell”; and in the process of doing that, violates one common principle of all religions – that one treat others the same as one would like to be treated.
No one likes to be insulted – and when insults are used as a way to claim one’s religious superiority over others, it merely reveals that the true spirit of whatever religion one professes has not taken root. Kinda like remembering a classroom lecture word-for-word, but not remembering or understanding the lesson.
In the end, only God knows best why he created us with the capacity and the freedom to follow various faiths, not to mention other physical differences abound throughout the human race. But perhaps it was done for us to realize that beyond the differences in theological paths, pigmentation and language, we all bleed red, and there is a lot of common ground between us, if only we took the trouble to look.
August 10, 2006 at 8:40 pm
I think if we wanna comment on sensitive with seriuos issue,
We should at least try to talk it in a more intellectual manner!
But alas politic is a dirty business!
With what is going in this ‘world’(not talking about Malaysia) today,
The world need a Peace among Christian and Muslim!
food for thought!
In Da Vinci Code…
The Great Messengger The Messiah Yesua(Jesus Christ) was made to be liar,
and adultress!
So, My Muslim freind when was the last time, Our Great Messengger…was attack? who attack us??? and who attack The Great Messiah(Al-Masih Isa)??
clue!
There are not Muslim or Christian!
To kill a billion Muslim! It can never be done by just a few people! You need a billion soildier to do it! the same with the billion christian!
Wonder who benefit from all this?
Those who collapse the WTC ’7′ building?????
August 10, 2006 at 9:23 pm
Whoa.. wait a second! I thought Article 11(4) says no one can proselytize to muslims. Proselytizing is clearly a crime. Baptizing, however, is hardly a crime. Lina Joy believes, and therefore wishes to be baptized. Who proselytized to her? The Church of Our Lady Fatima?
That’s putting the cart before the horse, isn’t it? So what’s with all this Police Reporting about the Church’s crimes?
Argh. Whatever.
August 10, 2006 at 9:44 pm
I’ll be honest here, MS.
Despite being a Christian, I love Islam. I love Buddhism. I LOVE ALL RELIGIONS. They promote nothing but goodness, kindness, love, affection, tolerance and all that good that can come from mankind. I love mankind too.
But I don’t like people. I don’t like people who assume that they are the judge and jury of what lies between me and God; the words God utters to me, they take and twists it around to fit their needs, their interpretation.
Since when did faith become something that is dictated by law and theories, by aggression and force? I thought your heart leads you to God not your goddamn mind and laws of this Earth. I thought God wants you to decide out of love and not because you want rewards or because someone pointed a gun to your head and told you to believe in him (or showed you a prison cell – pick your weapon of choice).
It hurts me to see people who profess to be god-fearing Muslims/Christians/Buddhist/otherwise persecuting their own brothers and sisters. It hurts me to see these very same people profess to have the right to correct others but walk around with super huge flaws that they can’t see.
“Remove the log out of your own eye before you attempt to remove the splinter in your neighbour’s eye.”
Since when wanting with God turn into something so fucking traumatic?
August 10, 2006 at 10:25 pm
hoo boy. Elitists.
Just because people do things in a diffrent way you call them infidels, you call them idiots, and better still, misquote their text and contort them in a funny way.
But still, minishorts was brave to be talking about this issue.
If you want to be truly “pure” in your love to God, the kaballah ALREADY stated that God is limited by your preception of Him. And what makes you think He’ll love you more for lambasting other people’s religion and calling them a man -made religion and whatnot? And since God is limited by your preception, why limit it more by allowing someone to tell you who he is, or merely by reading about Him and intepreting the words the way you want. You may not know if the word “apple” refers to a green one, and you intepret it as a red one. You may not know if the sentence you read should be intepreted literally or otherwise. In doing so you taint your preception of God.
I would like to point out that I really do admire Muhammad. For his humility. But according to an muslim ex-friend of mine, apparently this humility is selective and that he should only be humble to people greater than him, when he contradicted this principle by showing the outmost arrogance in certain matters. For one I do not remember Muhammad sniding people who do not believe in him. I remember him as a person with extraordinary humbleness and a wise person. If only for those of you who follow his lead have ONLY 0.1% of his humbleness and wisdom. If only.
I feel utterly sick and disgusted the way they call Christianity a man made religion. If Christianity is, what about Islam? Both religions were started by prophets, as far as I can see. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
I need a bath. I feel so dirty and sick reading some of the comments here.
August 11, 2006 at 12:01 am
MENJ- you would do some good if you took a page from Mahaguru58, a much more elderly and respected person by my standards’ post on this and ponder on it if you haven’t done so.
”’Such is the mentality of our people today. No one really wants to care and to show any concern for others but in Lina’s case, I can see that most of them are actually worried for her apostasy to be the start of an onslaught of similar apostate wannabes.
Who ever bothered to know Lina Joy or Azlina Jailani before this? Did anyone of the millions of fellow Muslims ever bothered to get to know this woman? I don’t think so.
The trouble with us is simply that we always wait for something to hit us in the forehead, right between the eyes before we realise it! Hey! If only we had?….etcetera…
So, you see, I don’t blame anyone else but ourselves! We, Muslims are the ones at fault!”’
And he goes on to disagree with the Article 11 foundation and all, but the key thing is the objectiveness of his opinion.I wish more people were like him.
August 11, 2006 at 12:17 am
When your faith is insulted …
Oy. Another storm in a teacup in the Malaysian blogosphere. Apparently a post by a Malaysian Muslim blogger has offended quite a few Malaysian bloggers, some of the Muslims themselves.
To be honest, I was surprised at the bravery of the said blogger i…
August 11, 2006 at 12:42 am
menj deleted a posting of mine at his blog which must have hit the simple truth.
he is flaming to get more traffic to his blog. people are turning away from his blog.
the postings are down. like i kesian – leave a non-inflammotary but heart slicing posting – he deleted. menj – you are s.o.t.earth.
you are not worth saving. only you can sedar and save yourself.
should you be arrested, you can actually plead mental case by the way you put your curse on peace-loving people. people of peace – do not be distracted – just don’t read his blogs.
there’s a line from king arthur – “you don’t exist when you are forgotten” – or to that effect.
btw menj, you are fighting the wrong battle.
christianity and other religions are not your battles.
the thrust of the world today is the re-discovery of the human self.
understanding within oneself the instincts and gifts that were robbed of when organised worshipping and religions were created.
animals don’t have organised fighting. they don’t have religions.
palestine, lebanon, israel are now only distractions.
think. breathe. choose. see anyone can do it.
August 11, 2006 at 12:48 am
I guess no one’s siding MENJ because we’re altogether at wrong.
afterall, the non-muslims and the ‘wrong’ muslims should all die right?
Only he’s right. Gee, someone should make him God or something.
He can then kill everyone and live happily on his own
MENJ, listen to yourself. and get a life.
August 11, 2006 at 1:18 am
There are so many Muslims. Musn’t be such a bad religion after all. Even some white guys become Muslim after marriage.
August 11, 2006 at 1:47 am
Dearest Kate,
Since you are NOT a Muslim, you have NO right to judge what is Beautiful and what is not of Islam because you DO NOT know the laws of Islam.
Period.
Rachel
Islam liberals are considered heretics in Islam because they bend the Truth and bow to the human defined laws of human rights that subtracts God from the equation. The true laws of Islam is bent just to fit into their own ideals of Islam.
This is indeed a serious crime in Islam, because what is False becomes the Truth, and what is Truth becomes False. Worse still they blur the line by mixing Truth with Falsehood.
As a non-Muslim, who have absolutely NO CLUE of Islam, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to judge our religion based on what it really is. And we as Muslims, do not tolerate any kind of adulteration to the pureness of our religion.
Now, my Muslim friends. In the Quran there is what is apparent and what is not apparent. This is a test from Allah SWT. Only those whose hearts are pure from any adulteration will understand the Message of God, and the laws in which God governs this Universe, part of the Unseen.
My Muslim brethren and those who ask:
“what right have YOU to judge who is kafir, who is musyrik, who is mutaqqun, etc?”
When you have an understanding of Islam, yes, you do have the right. If we human beings think that we are escapable from categorization, you are wrong. Race is a categorization, sociatal stature is a categorization, employment has it’s heirarchy.
If we do not categorize people and their ideals/beliefs/interpretation, as it follows then there is no definition of a belief. Anything goes.
So, what is the Truth of Islam then?
The truth of Islam will be found without a single atom of doubt, without a relenting hessitation to the desires of God; from the Al-Quran and Hadith Rasulullah (SAW).
Not based on human rights, not based on your own desires.
In case you did not know, Islam means submission to the Will of God. So, every part of your being, your intellect, your heart, your words and deeds submits to the Will of God.
Before I part,
Before a man could walk, he must first crawl, then shall he have the desire to walk. He will then have courage to run.
Sorry for my modernization using modern metophors (this is also dedicated to MENJ),
An infant wears a bib, as a man dons a tie, and finally an old man walks with a stick. Therefore, it is not right for an infant to wear a tie, or a man wearing a bib. Do not leave the old man falling because he does not have a stick.
Salam Alaikum
Rachel
PS: I shall be answering comments in menj.org only.
August 11, 2006 at 2:37 am
So, Rachel, what is it you’re saying exactly?
You condone MENJ’s insulting other religions, people, races, his constant ad hominems disguised as arguments, his various strawmen? What is it? You don’t think he’s wrong in insulting christians? Posting pictures of Lina Joy all over the place, invading her privacy? You agree with him saying things like “I’m watching you”, making vague threats, calling for a ‘conversion of all of them’?
Oh, btw, conversion how? Old skool conversion or more – dare I say this – reasoned proselytizing?