You can be an atheist and a fanatic too.
You know as much as I cannot take religious fanatics, I also have that lack of tolerance towards liberal fanatics. As much as I try.
You see, liberal fanatics, are just as bad as the Dooms Day Evangelists who're all out to scare you into loving God for Heaven. But of course, they preach something else altogether. The problem is, because so many people are up against the religionists who come with their messages of doom, Liberal Fanatics get away easy. So what if they're always putting down people who have firm conviction to religion?
'It's only fair,' say they. 'You've got to have the other end of the conundrum to fight all these lies.'
Oh so fighting fire with fire is the way to go? Or do you mean because the religious fanatics have hurt you, you find that it is only fair that you do the same to them?
A friend who knew I had been undergoing problems in my life asked me yesterday, 'How are thing?'
And I said the obvious, 'Oh should be ok. I've decided to rely on God, make the the rest of my life God-centred. In my relationships especially, I want to lean on God.'
And this person, because she's so consumed by her 'There is no God only science' philosophy, chooses, of all times, to present me with this response:
I think that people who love God more than a person don't give themselves a chance to find happiness here on earth. It'll always be the "God reason". Things go wrong, turn to God…
I said, 'Actually that's not the way to look at it.'
She had to continue, 'And things will never go right for people like this simply because the world isn't built to be perfect..'
Forgive me folks, but maybe my autopilot mode kicked into action, and I explained, 'The rationale of loving God before a person means, you choose to follow God's ways and you accept God's will for you..'
But before I could finish my explanation, she butt in, 'There it is again..'
'…and when that person you love is God-sent (literally)'
'…what about your will?'
'…and you abide by God's plans for you in your love for that person.'
'…your choices…'
What followed was a heated argument over our philosophies. Me being offended because while I had trust this person enough to share with her my personal choices, she chose to ridicule these choices because they were made in a mould that was completely against her science-only-school-of-thought. And she of course, stating that it was my fault for putting God beyond everything else that I couldn't even allow her to express her motivation and her rationale for rejecting a God-centred philosophy.
'God being the third wheel, only spells troubles,' her rationale.
But you have to understand, for believers in a religion, in a higher being that protects our lives, He is NOT a third wheel. Just because YOU cannot accept that concept does not mean our reality is WRONG. It just means we're on different planes.
And she goes on to tell me, in more words than these, 'You're forcing things down my throat.'
But check the conversation above, and tell me again. Who is preaching what? Did I tell her to accept my beliefs? Or was she telling me that my beliefs are leading me to trouble? Which was more offensive than the other?
Or maybe, and I like to think this, we were both wrong.
I've seen arguments between the atheist and the believer. And it can get ridiculous. On one hand, the believer goes on and on and on about the wonders of heaven and the terror of hell. Never mind that he has never been to either place before, but the fact that he believes in that reality so much, has got him entrapped in a capsuled-mindset that orders him to bring as many friends as possible to his side of the world.
And the Atheist, in a confused effort to ward off these attacks, will resort to violent protests and assaults on the believer's religion.
Perhaps we have to reconsider the fact that the non-God believers of this world have been poisoned by the scare-tactics that overzealous religionists have used upon them, and thus resulting in this contempt for people who sincerely choose to walk in the laws of religion (whichever God you believe in). Unfortunately what has happened is, while we are busy calling people to trust in the varying belief systems that have all granted us personal peace and calm, so many of us have contributed into building another community that lives to disprove the existence of God.
The unfortunate thing is, they too have incredible zeal, and they too have turned into fanatics. You see websites popping up everywhere, testifying about the corruption of religion. You see young people who defy religion in its face, calling themselves morally driven from the self, but unable to see the dismorality in blasphemizing the faith of a person who chooses to believe in God.
I suppose this is why we call it the 'fall of man'. So consumed by our versions of right and wrong, we let our personal philosophies transcend the importance of loving peace, loving respect, and loving universal brotherhood.
October 17th, 2006 at 8:54 am
Maybe we will stop bothering your religion, when your fellow believers stop bothering us and trying to ban stuff.
‘Oh so fighting fire with fire is the way to go? Or do you mean because the religious fanatics have hurt you, you find that it is only fair that you do the same to them?’
WHICH PART OF THIS, Attacking Monkeys, DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
October 17th, 2006 at 9:12 am
Good morning!
I understand exactly how you feel. I have met a real pain in the neck kind of atheist myself who is all that and more.
Personally I don’t care whether she goes to hell or what but her insolence, her know it all attitude and recalcitrant manners, really pisses me off too.
She is just so bloody arrogant in dismissing off God that if she were to die off today, I’d be saying ‘Good riddance!’ without an iota of remorse or pity for the type of rude, arrogant piece of filth she is.
God can be so patient with her likes! I know I can’t.
http://mahaguru58.blogspot.com/2006/10/atheists-refuting-those-who-deny-allah.html
I fear you’re being too liberal in your anger doses towards your little troll there, though. I wouldn’t go as far as to calling her ‘a rude, arrogant piece of filth’. I just saw your message in my previous post. I hope you understand where I’m coming from… with regards to spiritual growth, my stand is that as far as we grow in our individual walks with God, we MUST not forget the very important rule of respect and tolerance.
And btw, it is not that I don’t want to confront you direct. You are using blogspot and I cannot log into blogspot comment systems because of the firewall banning blogspot comment dropping. And I HAVE ALWAYS CONFRONTED people like you directly, just directly in my blog that’s all. You are just slow to realize I’ve been doing this for a long time.
October 17th, 2006 at 9:20 am
I’m pretty much guessing that this is only your perspective of conversation and not what was actually said. It kinda puts a skewed perspective on whether or not anyone was being preachy in the first place. Maybe she was saying that you got to trust yourself as a person first before you have faith in anything else. Maybe it’s just me, but religious people tend to be very touchy when their beliefs are being questioned…even when it was offered with the same friendly gesture as they come in.
The sad thing here is when religious believers equate the disbelief of religion with the absence of God in life. Personally I really don’t like it when people always put them in the same class. A lot of agnostics tend not to shove things down people’s throat, because our philosophy is simple, question everything, accept everything. We know there is a God, we just don’t think it’s any God that man has come up with, so we try not to make human assumptions of God and leave it as it is.
Yes we always tend to forget that belief doesn’t mean you’re willing to be open to other possibilities immedietly. It doesn’t also mean we do it on purpose. To live, learn, question, understand then accept the world as it is. We still don’t understand why that affects some people to do so. I still don’t.
To say that young people defy religion yet call themselves morally driven is not entirely true. You can’t be morally driven from anything, self included if you don’t buy into the the dogmatic doctrines of religion which dictates moral values. Ethically driven on the other hand could be substituted, in which the grey areas of circumstantial events doesn’t lead to the black and white discourse of morality.
Maybe the world isn’t ready to openly discuss about religion and ideas, I mean the Catholics have been trying to do that for centuries. But if this about your friend, maybe for her it doesn’t matter in the end. Maybe what matters is for her to live and learn from what happens together with you. Athiests may not buy into what religion is about, but I can bet that they can be nice people too, otherwise she wouldn’t have been your friend in the first place wouldn’t she?
I did not say that all atheists are bad. What I’m saying lies in the second half of my post, which speaks from my heart. Is this a skewed perspective? It is only skewed if you view the words from your point of view. But be assured that I have reproduced WORD FOR WORD the very first lines that provided for the onset of the ‘argument’. You may call it an attempt to account for the awful things that we had both said to each other towards the end. And yet the fact remains, had the believer not been assaulted from the start for her personal choice, the argument and the slandering of each other, would not have happened. Was it my fault for being ‘oversensitive’ and thinking that I was being attacked? Maybe. But I recalled the events and I realize nowhere in my conversation with my best and closest friend, did I force her to confess and accept my God. Still, I know that if my friend is reading this, I want to sincerely apologize for the terrible things that I had said, in an attempt to protect myself.
October 17th, 2006 at 10:34 am
The problem with the whole conversation is that neither party was willing to say…
Ummm, right, whatever, good for you….let’s go eat.
A person’s belief is always right, from their perspective, else one wouldn’t hold that belief otherwise.
Taking the original context of your conversation, she’s clearly thinking..Haiya, everything leave to god, take some responsiblity for your own life woman! If it doesnt rain for years, wait there and die of thirst issit?
Now, given her world-view, ie that there is no god, that’s a perfectly logical response.
On the other side of the coin, given that God is the foundation of your world-view, its perfectly understandable for you to think…wtf? Hullo, which part of Christian do you not understand?
And that’s where someone shd have recognised that both views are mutually exclusive and it shd be left there as it is. Go makan instead.
The catalyst of the whole discussion was her concern for you in your time of turmoil.
Standing in her shoes and putting your belief aside for the moment, rationality dictates an appreciation of the fact that her idea of taking care of oneself is premised on individual action. The fact that her friend has declared reliance/submission to the will of an entity that she doesnt believe exists is as frightening to her as you saying that “if I jump off this cliff that net will catch me” when all she sees btwn you and the ground is…nothing.
Naturally she doth protest.
It’s just too bad that she doth protest too much.
And that you couldnt back down either.
If each had stopped to think - This is useless, I’ll just have to accept my friend the way she is - then the catalyst of the debate would NOT have been forgotten.
October 17th, 2006 at 10:42 am
Oh another thing…
Is this a skewed perspective? It is only skewed if you view the words from your point of view.
Actually, no. It ISNT skewed from your point of view. It’s just skewed frm the perspective of the person who doesn’t share the same POV as you.
Was it my fault for being ‘oversensitive’ and thinking that I was being attacked? Maybe.
Or maybe, and I like to think this, we were both wrong.
For these two statements alone, I applaud you. It’s got more depth than the spew of emotional whackadoo or the verbose condescension that’s been exhibited in response to your post so far.
October 17th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
I agree generally with Spot.
I accepted Christ in 1998. Before that, woe be to those Christians who try to convince me that Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. I am happy with myself (I am a Taoist) and I have Kuan Yin and other gods to protect me. Let’s just say, I get into an argumentative mood whenever someone else tries to preach to me that their religion is the right religion.
Through events in my life and I believe, by the fervent prayers of many, my eyes were suddenly opened and I realised that I have condemned Jesus to the cross again and again by my denial of His glory. I began to read more about Christianity and having felt God’s calling, I accepted Jesus as my saviour.
Whilst I have met many Christians who are, unfortunately only interested in sharing the Good News with me but are not genuine in other matters affecting my life, my then girlfriend (now my wife) shows me a different example of a Christian. One who is humble, loving and slow to criticise. I then realise that not all Christians are bad afterall.
The point of my reply is this:-
Sometimes, words alone will lead nowhere. In our haste to defend our beliefs, we may use hurtful words unknowingly which will strain whatever relationship there is between us and the other. Actions speak louder than words. If we are able to accept and love our neighbours unconditionally (whether they agree with us or not), we will be our own witnesses to our beliefs (whatever our beliefs may be).
Jesus said “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:37-40)
I have come to accept that sometimes, it is pointless going into arguments about who is right and who is wrong. Men, by nature, do not like to admit defeat or that they are wrong about something. But love wins people’s hearts. And that is what I shall strive to do, no matter how hard it is.
October 17th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
Hello. Love how you concluded the piece. It’s true. We need to focus on LOVING PEOPLE again. To practice that unconditional love we have received and has come to know.
Cheers, my friend.
October 17th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
Hi Minishorts,
I read your blog from time to time, but seldom leave a comment. I guess topics on ‘religious/non-religious perspectives’ attract my attention more than others, so I hope I can leave some of my thoughts here.
This (as in the issue you’ve raised in this post) is actually a ‘touchy’ topic and more often than not, lead to heated arguments and sadly hurt feelings. It’s really hard to approach or start a conversation on faith with the hope of coming out with an answer that would satisfy both parties - i.e. believer and non-believer.
Personally I have great respect for people who can put their faith, fully, into any one religion. One reason is because I cannot. I have doubts and that is enough for me not to commit to any religion.
Frankly speaking, from your post, the moment I read this line:
“And I said the obvious, ‘Oh should be ok. I’ve decided to rely on God, make the the rest of my life God-centred. In my relationships especially, I want to lean on God.’”
I have this urge to make a response to counter such thoughts. But that is because I do not believe in making God the reason (some say excuse) for my actions.
Now, before you reply to whatever assumptions that seem to come along with my statement above, I would like to say that, given the time to understand your words carefully, I would have said say, “hey, it’s great that you feel so strongly about God!” instead. And from reading your blog thus far, I do not think that you are the person to surrender fully to something/someone that cannot be explained, blindly.
What I’m trying to say is that, to many who are confronted with beliefs strongly opposite to their own, rationality often takes a back seat. I had a hard time trying to word my opinion ‘nicely’ - and I’m an agnostic (by definition anyway). It’s really not surprising that your friend, with her strong beliefs, reacted the way she did.
This is not to say that the way she reacted was correct. But as your good friend, I believe she was more opinionated on this because she cared.
The rest, I agree with spot - he had it spot on…erm forgive me for the pun.
I’m not saying that she didn’t care. I’m grateful for that attention. More importantly, I’m grateful for the occurence of that conversation to also address the people among the atheists who forget too, that they can be over zealous in their struggles to disprove people who believe in a God-led system. Because maybe, we’ve always blamed the fundamental religionists, and we forget that there are also fundamentalists among the atheists and agnostics.
October 17th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
Everyone stop bothering Shorts lah…
Its very simple. She was being open to her good friend and sharing her beliefs. Her friend took it upon herself to impose her own beliefs to Shorts.
Christianity is a belief.
Atheism is also a belief.
Don insult lah, either way.
October 17th, 2006 at 5:18 pm
Addressing her as Shorts sounds so funny.
Anyway, I think both sides need moderation.
Minishorts to stop seeing everything with god googles
And her friend to stop trying to tell minishorts there is no god (which may be the truth)
But then I’m biased against religion.
But really, one side has to stop telling people there is a god (just believe in it on your own time and stop spreading the good word) and the other has to stop believe that there is no god (just believe in it and let religious believers waste their time)…
Can’t you people compromise?
Actually, all these entire walls of texts can easily be avoided by minding your own business and shutting up and letting people believe what they want.
October 17th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
To anonymouse,
You wrote, “believe that there is no god (just believe in it and let religious believers waste their time)… ”
This is your idea of tolerating and comprising?
you further wrote this, “Actually, all these entire walls of texts can easily be avoided by minding your own business and shutting up and letting people believe what they want”
You contradict yourself with these 2 sentences.
To mini, another honest and thought provoking piece. Thanks for bringing up that issue about existence of fundamentalist among the atheist.
Despite the differences, there’s not a need in using insulting and harsh words or resort to calling names about other beliefs. Respect others enough to NOT do that.
Actions speak louder than words. Say all we want because at the end of day, your action that counts.
Faith without work IS DEAD.
Bless you.
alvin
October 17th, 2006 at 7:16 pm
Say what you will, but everytime I get into a heated discussion with a person like you, it tends to be instigated by that fellow person’s attempt in dissing my personal views or trying to recruit me for the ten time to his or her church.
Did I go write a blog attacking all religious people as fanatics? No. Did I wish death or call him or her filthy (this is aimed at that idiot Mahaguru)? No.
I also understand that ‘non-believers’ also start arguements but most of the time, at least in the media, any kind of ‘whether religion belongs to the public sector’ kind of debate are mostly started when some shit storm is created by christian fundamentalists, at least in the country where I reside. Hei, it was you today who started this whole shitstorm didn’t you? Calling atheist fanatics and all.
October 17th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
hey minishorts, how ya doing? =D cheer up girl.
i just felt that there’s a lot of things in this world we can’t really change. we can’t change our circumstances, but what we can change is the way we react to it. and trust me, you’re gonna continue having controversies when you speak of the Word cos the fact is, Jesus is as controversial to the world as you can get. Truth reveals what is wrong, and ppl don’t like that. Sure, you can sit back and not talk about how God is impacting your life to anyone and that would make others happy. But that wouldn’t be right thing for you to do, would it? Life as a believer was never meant to be easy. It’s a narrow path. Deal with your circumstances and continue to grow in strength to strength.
god bless.
October 17th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
Hi there. Couldn’t help but comment to this post.
Anyway, I don’t know if you know of Richard Dawkin’s recent work. It’s good reading if you want one very well argued position that is contrary to your (pro-religious) worldview. Apart from being a world-class biologist, he is an athiest and frequently campaigns on what he calls “the dangers of religion”.
You can get a taster in this interview with him: http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/04/30/dawkins/index.html
Although I am not an atheist (in fact, I’m a muslim), I find his that arguments are very well constructed. I don’t totally agree with him, but I see where he’s definitely coming from.
October 17th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
Hi Minishorts,
“Because maybe, we’ve always blamed the fundamental religionists, and we forget that there are also fundamentalists among the atheists and agnostics.”
Agreed. Funnily in an argument/conversation, I tend to defend religion when some, what you would call fundamentalist atheist, goes on the attack on religion.
Another thing that kinda caught my attention is what shaunewe said. It’s really fine what this writer has to say to you, as a believer. Unfortunately to me his holier-than-thou words simply puts me off - but that’s just me.
I also understand that it’s hard for those who has faith to “not spread the good word”. Christians and Muslims alike are asked (if not commanded) to spread the “truth” and the teachings of their religion. I understand it’s truly hard that on one hand believers strongly believe that it’s the right thing to do, and yet, it is this enthusiasm that often put people off.
Personally, I think faith has to come naturally. The strongest believers are those who have experienced or rather has been touched by the workings of God. Say for a very simplistic example (humour me :)), we are going through a tough time, and we needed strength, perhaps an answer. And so we pray to God for help, for guidance. And believe we will when we do recieve His blessings. Ask and you shall receive.
However, from another perspective, maybe some of us did not pray for help. And yet it turned out alright in the end. Perhaps the problem was resolved through logical thinking, personal strength and perseverance - meaning God was not in the formula (crudely speaking). You may say that God guides even those who does not believe in Him - but it would be hard convincing those who did not “feel” His blessings.
It’s a matter of perspective and experience. Again, my respects to those who have found God and no offence intended to believers.
October 17th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
Well, we do not have the transcript of the conversation so I have no idea what exactly she was saying. I do want to point out however, that she may not have been attacking you. I myself have friends who go “God this, God that”, so I can relate to the concern she is having.
You yourself have posted about religious extremists and just how bad they can get. Guess what, devoting every single milisecond of your life to God is often the first step down that path. I have friends who gone through the “God is everything” phase, it often reflects a deeper problem they are having(Not saying you have such problems, just a generalisation). So i hope you can see why your friend said what she said.
Another thing, it seems that you mix the belief in God and religion together. That is not necessarily true. There are people who believe in God but do not follow any religion (Deists). Just thought i’d point it out, since some people take the hostility against religion to mean hostility against God.
Oh btw, erin… strong atheism is a belief. Weak atheism is the lack of belief. Don’t confuse the two, while it may look the same it is actually very different.
October 18th, 2006 at 12:16 am
tell me this is a coincidence
I guess the only way to stop all our argument is to let an alien from outter space tell us that we are actually one of its failed experiments
October 18th, 2006 at 3:04 am
Fanatics, as a group, are bad news. Fullstop.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:02 am
Can I add something?
How about this analogy for one’s personal belief:-
Mr. X has just stumbled upon the best Nasi Kandar he had ever tried and he is just so excited about it. So, he tells Mr. Y who happens to be his best friend. Mr. Y replied saying that another Nasi Kandar stall is better. But Mr. X feels that Mr. Y’s choice is not as good as the one he just tried. So, he tells Mr. Y that Mr. Y’s choice can’t be compared to his new found Nasi Kandar place. And they start arguing over who’s Nasi Kandar stall is better and tries to impose their opinion on the other and at the same time, ridiculing the other Nasi Kandar as being too oily, too salty, unhealthy, unfresh, etc. As a result of this, Mr. X and Mr. Y get personal and start ridiculing the other’s judgment on food generally. And it gets worse. They start attacking each other’s morality, culture, race etc. You got it right, they are no more the best of friends after that.
And all these because Mr. X just wants to share his new experience with his best friend.
October 18th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
in defense of Attacking Monkeys:
what he meant is that what atheist said is usually (though not always) in defense when religious fanatics tried to imposed their belief in them… forcefully. example of this is all over your blog, even you grew sick when your fellow believer became too fanatic, so imagine an atheist.
in defense of minishorts:
she is not calling atheist fanatic, merely pointing out that they can be as persistent in trying to prove God does not exist as believers are in trying to prove God does.
Everything is so much more peaceful if everyone will just pay better attention to what the other have to say.
To Rez
Ppl who believe in their religion naturally feel obliged to share but this should be out of sincerity and not like a salesman pushing hard to meet his monthly quota and not by telling others they will go to hell. I agreed with you that faith should come naturally.
To pablopabla
lol… great story with the nasi kandar. Surely everyone gets your point here.
To minishorts
Hell… I am replying as if this is my blog. sori…
October 18th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
Blah blah blah.
Fact is, her friend insulted her religion, and Minishorts didn’t.
It doesn’t matter what other Christians do. It doesn’t matter what other Atheists do. In fact, the blardy topic doesn’t matter.
What matters is that Person A insulted Person B.
Short’s friend should apologise to Shorts just for that alone.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
I’ll have to agree with pablopabla that actions really speak louder than words. The Bible says we are responsible for the unsaved (Ezekiel 3:16 - 19). We are responsible to continuously share the Good News but sometimes it takes more than just sharing and words. Let our lives be a living testimony to all and to prove there’s only one truly living God and where ever we are placed, we are where we are to fulfill God’s loving plans and purposes, to serve Him and to finish His job!
October 20th, 2006 at 12:37 am
Minishorts,
You called me a troll! I’m hurt
hahaha. By the way, I am the “filth” mentioned by the esteemed scholar Mahamandan58 sir 