My God is not the boogeyman.
Word of Caution: If you're strongly Charismatic, or you're living your entire life waiting for Christ to ride in with the clouds, please forgive my rant. My blog after all.
A few months back, a friend, well, a friend of a close friend, fervently Christian no doubt, came declaring to our party of girls, declaring that the Good Lord had sent her a vision.
'And then I looked up into the sky, and the heavens and the clouds had parted, and then I saw a chariot led by horses, and I looked down, and I saw the grounds break apart, and the flames of hell lashed out from beneath… and the horse-led chariots went down to battle the demons of hell.'
We were awestruck. Now I can't quite remember what the rest actually said, but most of us, out of politeness had concurred to agree with our living prophet here, not deciding to test whether her visions were God sent or human driven. Nonetheless, her decision to bear the cross for Christ was declared in great passion, and she made the announcement, 'This is sign that God wants me to battle the devil for him.'
I want to say out loud here that what she said disturbs me greatly, in the same way as every fundamentalist outburst leaves me feeling utterly disgusted by this silly moulding of God into a scary creature who casts infidels into Hell for not obeying him.
There are several observations you can gather from your nearest friend in order to start labelling him as a religious fundamentalist:
1) This obsession with the Rapture – most fundamentalists I know spend their entire lives waiting and waiting for God to come riding the clouds with trumpets sounding in background all the time. Now you ask me: do I believe in Kingdom come? Yes I do. You ask me again: then how can I insult my peers like this? Well because I don't spend every second of my life looking out at the sky waiting for it to open with a loud crash! More importantly I don't spend every minute available telling my friends that they have to be quick to accept Christ otherwise when Kingdom come it is too late.
2) This obsession with the fear of hell – The recounting and recounting of near death experiences of people who died once and went down to hell and went to heaven again and finally deciding that Christ is supposed to be. Now the strange thing is how fundamentalists can discount the fact that every religion has reported their own cases of near-death experiences, and for every NDE report, you can see the pattern somehow miraculously matches the heaven and hell that was conceptualized in the shaping of that believer's world view. So either we're all wrong, or we're all right and there really is a heaven and hell for all of us. The point is, does it really matter? Did God say that we live our entire lives waddling in this misery of earth and waiting for the day to die so that our enemies will burn in hell and we will rejoice in heaven? That's pretty 'loving' of Christianity, isn't it? So much for 'Love Thy Neighbour and Love Thy Enemies'.
3) The obsession with I'm right no you're wrong actually I'm right so really if you don't believe in God the way I do too bad for you see you in hell (urm, if you're going to heaven how the heck are you going to see the other person in hell?)
4) This terrifying fear of the demon possessing inanimate objects and the housecleaning rituals of throwing out inanimate objects (i.e. peace symbols, pentagram symbols, biscuits with shadowy symbols of other religions, bla bla, bla bla, occultic practises of yoga, photos that contain images of other Gods, INANIMATE OBJECTS that contain the devil!).
5) The strange fact that fundamentalists actually claim to read the bible religiously, and yet have conveniently overlooked the fact that the bible specifically mentions that demons and spirits only possess human beings and animals hence actually, my dears, your average plate that has a picture of the dragon, nah, that's just a plate, mind you. Your t-shirt that has the image of a skull, it's just a skull out to scare people. That halloween pumpkin there, it's not going to come alive and gnaw you to pieces, thank God.
6) The stupid preoccupation with the bearing of the cross and fighting the devil for God — God said, go forth and bear fruit, God never said battle the demon for me. Or did He? Ok… hammer me but I'm wrong, but remembering that Lucifer was a fallen angel, I would presume that God actually loves the devil, and it is the devil who rejects and hates God, and God casted Him out of Heaven because of this rebellion. So I would presume that since God said love thy enemy, and if the devil is God's enemy, wouldn't this mean that God loves his enemies, including the Devil too? Wouldn't this also technically mean that if one day, the devil chooses to say 'I'm sorry God for I'm sinned,' God would accept the devil? And if that is so, why would you want to fight the devil?
I think the problem is that the devil can't choose to love God because he's enjoying himself too much watching this senseless battle that's going on between the fundamentals and the liberalists (ouch I'm guilty, please crucify me). After all since all of us are worshipping devillish concepts anyway and living such pride-filled lives (remember God says pride is a sin), why should the devil want to love God? He's flourishing in his own narcissism right now.
Look, my point is this, if you wanna go to Heaven and cast me to Hell, do it one time and leave me alone. The truth is I don't want your intrusion into my study of God or my pursuit of God. God does things in His own time, so since I've come home the prodigal daughter (took me 10 years, mind you), don't lah come along like a leech in my life and offer to babysit me so that I don't walk the wrong path. And I'd like to keep this relationship personal, thank you very much. When you choose to come into my relationship and start telling me how I should treat my Dad, that's when you're being uninvited and intrusive.
Besides, with all this talk of God is ever faithful, if I do happen to stumble along the way, I trust that He will send His angels to guide me back to the right way. So really, you don't have to be so helpful and caring.
You see, GOD is a loving God who CARES for us. Now the Bible says that Jesus holds the keys to Hell and the right to judge belongs to Him and Him alone. Keeping this in mind, it means that fundamentalists should stop extorting people into Christianity and instead focus on making things right with themselves and living in faith. Become the salt and light of the world, not become a dysfunctional intercom speaker for God. It means that when you MINISTER you don't run up to a poor disbeliever and tell him, 'If you don't accept Christ as your personal lord and saviour He will not let you enter heaven and when you die it will be too late to decide.'
The attraction in Christ is not the physical 'Heaven' he promises but the freedom from slavery that set all of us free from these man-made persuasions. Why else did He die on the cross and live again? For fun izzit? A thousand years before Christ came the whole world lived in fear of hell. Two thousand years later post-Christ we're still living in fear of Hell instead of in anticipation for the reunion with Christ. What is this lah.
You absolutely do not scare a non-believer into kneeling and trembling before God. You don't come up with strange conceptions made on a hallucinated conception that God has closed one door to Heaven and the other door is still left open so the entrance is very small right now. And for God's sake don't tell a non-believer that if he doesn't say 'OH JESUS IS LORD' asap, he will regret eternally in Hell.
Please, do us a favour: DON'T TURN GOD INTO THE BOOGEYMAN!!!
Ministering for God, living evangelism, means that you choose to walk in faith and let your life be a blessing and inspiration to others. Not preaching fire and brimstone to people who don't really give a damn about death and telling them that they have to be very scared because God is real. That's like telling your little five year old kid to go to bed early at night because the boogeyman will catch her. And the fact remains, God loves, and God cares for all of us and God is ever accepting of us no matter how far we wander from Him, He will always welcome us back. God was never the boogeyman.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:23 pm
A good read indeed. Which church do you attend anyway? Just curious, no hidden agenda lar. Haha.
Note: I’m also a Christian.
November 21st, 2006 at 6:46 pm
Interesting read on things. Yes i would like to believe that God is all merciful and loves all mankind which is essentially the truth. God is love after all and the greatest commandment as you’ve said it is to love thy neighbour and love thy enemies.
but the problem remains that in certain things it’s just black and whtie and there isn’t really a gray area. In the same way that God is holy, and things which are not holy cannot be in the presence of God.
The truth for us Christian is that we are all born in sin…even if we’ve not done anything wrong in our life, the sin is from the days of adam and eve. and sin means we’re not holy, we can’t be in the presence of God. So how do you get rid of this sin in order to be cleansed? That’s the issue i guess . I really like to beleive that all good souls regardless of belief goes to heaven, that there is karma and stuff but it isn’t the case
at any rate..it doesn’t mean if u’re christian u go to heaven as well….
November 21st, 2006 at 7:10 pm
This is one of the most BORING post evarr!
November 21st, 2006 at 8:03 pm
*No pun watsoever intended (really sorry if I offended u by this comment)*
but I didnt realize u are a christian until this post came up. Eventhough i’m a believer but not too long, I’m always got frustrated by these church-fundamentalists nonsenses. N I thot only an atheist or someone outside the christian world can see it.
I guess Jesus knew this when He said, we have to remove the speck from our eyes before removing a log from others…or somthing like that la.
Most of the ppl I met just couldnt understand when I tried to tell them wat i feel, most of time, they will shove me scriptures and I got confused. That’s y i like reading ur posts about religions bcuz u understand the problems and u speak out..(heck, not every1 can put words into their thoughts)
So, thank u. Knowing I’m not alone in this world to ’sort-out’ this problem, my problem watever…it really made my day. God bless.:smile:
November 21st, 2006 at 8:04 pm
dear mS: pre-warning that I’m the usual knotty Desi, K!
He may be the boogeyman if the extra “o” implies he likes dancing, like Desi doing the twist, R&R and tango awe-in-one? Drop one “oh” and I get what you mean, which I agree 99%, the less 1% is for that spelling ellor, butt you’e consistent, othervice, it’s only 97. Luckily today is not wedNURSEdie!:)
November 21st, 2006 at 8:43 pm
Being a Christian is one thing. Being a different denomination is another thing. So which denomination are you in? Catholic, Lutheran, Charismatic, Aventist, Quaker, Latter Day Saints?
November 21st, 2006 at 9:31 pm
I like this post. It echoes my own sentiments exactly.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:45 pm
judge not my faith by my cynicism.
i’ve said it once. i’ll say it again.
not all visions are from God.
some are chemically induced.
others are even more scary.
November 21st, 2006 at 10:50 pm
I believe that our dreams are manifestations of our conscious thoughts.
Anyway, I have some post bashing those extremists. Perhaps I should quote some from here.
November 21st, 2006 at 11:06 pm
This world cannot be at peace because more and more are choosing to be an extremist and can’t live with differences.
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:01 am
Thanks for the insightful write-up..I agree..There’s no way any Christian can spread the good news by turning GOD into a bogeyman…in fact, sometimes I see these zealots consumed with themselves..I doubt if they had much Christ-likeness during those times when they preach hellstones and brim-fire..however, I also do not think that we should shy away from the truth if we were ever asked our position on the matter. If asked whether a non-Christian will ever enter into heaven, I would still say no…cos, that’s my belief and because that’s what Christ had said..but there’s no need to over-emphasize that…God’s goodness is a better subject to think and talk about, I think.Souls are saved thru love rather than fear–my humble opinion please.
November 22nd, 2006 at 7:56 am
yeah… these ridiculously persuasive ’salesmen’-type christians are plain annoying. they drive people away from God more than draw them.
November 22nd, 2006 at 8:26 am
Leongheng: then I think I’m different, probably heretic in a way. If asked whether a non-Christian can enter heaven, I’ll say I don’t know, I’m not God. If asked whether a Christian is sure to enter heaven, I’ll still say I don’t know. And then I’ll add on, ‘Does it really matter? Do you love Christ for Heaven? Or do you love Christ for what He did?’
The way I look at it, there is a difference between the two. Your choice between the two will change the way you pursue ‘heaven’ as a notion, and eventually, it will show up in the way you treat your fellow friends.
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:16 am
[quote] The truth for us Christian is that we are all born in sin…even if we’ve not done anything wrong in our life, the sin is from the days of adam and eve. and sin means we’re not holy, we can’t be in the presence of God. So how do you get rid of this sin in order to be cleansed?[/quote]
Kelvin, what you said there pisses me off and gives christians a bad name. It is condescending to say that at the point of being born into the world ,christians are with sin and the only way to be cleansed is to be baptised. This is truly ignorant and arrogant because what does that make of non christians, are they without sin just because they do not have a ‘christian tag’ around them?
To spin it around the other way, are babies born who have no notion of what is right and wrong , fresh into the world and who knows jack about anything yet with sin just because a few elite people who had the notion that god was with them to warrant a judgement call on future generations JUST because a man and woman did something wrong at the dawn of time ? If you say yes to either one of these questions , then you sir are ignorant and distort what god is.
Baptism is just a right of initiation into a group of people with the same idea(s). It does not dictate that you are washed clean from your sins. People are supposed to be responsible for their actions alone and not carry the ’sins of the father’.
[quote]That’s the issue i guess . I really like to beleive that all good souls regardless of belief goes to heaven, that there is karma and stuff but it isn’t the case[/quote]
Karma does exist.
Unfortunately Peter, there is one thing you might want to understand about the concept of Christianity. We believe that all who are born of Adam *i.e. everyone of earth, is a sinner. Yet there is something else I wanna extend to Christians who feel that accepting Christ alone and undergoing the waters of baptism makes us cleansed of sins. The church is a place for sinners, God did not come to save the sinless, He came to save the sinners. Now having this in mind, it simply means that you, and me, non christian and christian alike, are both sinners. The difference is that I’ve accepted Christ as my lifeline, in my thirst to find a way to learn how to wash away my sins… and yet I accept that I will still continue to sin. You may have accepted another way to avoid or wash away your sins… that’s all right too.
Some people talk about good works alone will help us attain heaven, some people say hence it is not necessary to believe in a God. This could be true. But Christians choose to believe that they are incapable of defining good on their own, because we are, after all, sinners… how can a sinner start to decide for himself what is good and what is bad, right? For me I feel that because I’m a sinner, naturally I’m incapable of being a good judge of ‘betul’ and ’salah’. Here in lies the idea of committing it all to God, you live by God’s laws, and believe and have the faith that God’s dictation of good and bad is fact. Notice this is not an easy choice to take. But taking that plunge into Christian faith, an acceptance of a free-fall trust in Christ as savior means we choose to commit our sins to God and live by his laws. Unfortunately it also means, pardon me, you as a non-Christian (presumably) will have to live with the constant accusation of us calling you a sinner. Try to take solace in the fact that we all BELIEVE that we are sinners, Christian or no-Christian alike. Any Christian who feels that they will be cleansed of sins just by belief, baptism and the other rites will need to study the Bible a little more.
Does Karma exist? Karma is just another word for retribution, cause and effect, laws of the universe. Differences of opinion becomes a problem when you look at everything through spiritual tinted sunglasses, and take up combative karate every time someone comes to you and tells you, ‘Let me tell you about my God.’
Put it this way, try to learn and accept that fact that your average evangelist has put on his ‘armor of God’ along with a ’sword for charging’ out of a conviction, perhaps a pure heart of caring that he wants you to learn about the grace of God. When you know this, you get a choice. Now do you engage him in the battle? Or do you choose to ask for a handshake of peace? It is your choice after all, one hand is incapable of clapping by itself.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:06 am
In essence, I do agree with what you’re saying.
But…
It sounds to me that your friend was just sharing her vision with you as a friend. Does it really justify you making fun of her publicly, and rant at her? It doesn’t sound like she imposed anything on you anyway.
Whether or not the vision is true, it doesn’t matter anyway. Its her walk with God. Why are YOU imposing your beliefs on her?
The problem Erin is this. Whether or not the vision is true matters because a lot of Christians choose such spiritual encounters as a factual basis to extort non-believers into Christ. Am I imposing my beliefs on her? Maybe… Is she imposing her beliefs on me… maybe too. I know she is definitely sharing this vision with her friends, is she then imposing her beliefs on them… maybe… but there is one thing definitely, people will be affected by her vision, and there are people who will start to choose her as the definitive source for inspiration, citing her ’specialness’, because she has got visions. It causes strife, it causes hatred from non-Christians to Christians, Christians among Christians themselves. If she is convicted enough to share what she needed to share, then I too am convicted to share what I want to share. My walk with God tells me that people need to know evangelism doesn’t have to involve scare tactics. That they need to go back to understand and define whether visions are spirit-led or human-led.
I’m sorry I’ve offended you Erin, but I’m sure you’ll understand that this labeling of Christians into separate categories led by this sort of vision-led Christian-based prophecies have been going on for sometime. Maybe I think its important that before some Christians start to embrace me as the next mouthpiece for God, they need to understand what I actually view of the battles between the apologetics and polemics. To you, she doesn’t sound like she was imposing anything on me, because a lot of Christians have this belief that we are all supposed to believe in the same version of Christianity. Well wake-up call, I’m not your average Rapture-waiting, vision-trusting Christian. And that’s why I wrote this. It sounds full of pride, that is my sin, but it also comes from the pain that roots from the witnessing of the demonising of God.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:35 am
(1). “More importantly I don’t spend every minute available telling my friends that they have to be quick to accept Christ otherwise when Kingdom come it is too late”
> Good point. Instead of drawing the “yet-to-be believers” “NEARER” to the faith, we are in fact pushing them away. Because isn’t that a threat? If you don’t do this, you will get this. If you don’t agree with me, you will end up like this. It sounds like a threat to me. Many of us do have very good intentions to see our loved one’s, friends to be saved, and really are sincere. But do you know they sometimes we can be “sincerely” wrong as well. Need more wisdom in how to share the love of Christ instead of splurging out threats after threats, share with them what God is presently doing in OUR LIVES, it is through our “testimonies” that shows that God is REAL. Show that reality. Many yet-to-be believers MAY NOT AGREE with the Christian faith, may even scorn at some of the principles of Christ BUT it is not a doubt at all in my mind that they are & will be INSPIRED by our faith- real life experiences.
3). The obsession with I’m right no you’re wrong actually I’m right so really if you don’t believe in God the way I do too bad for you see you in hell……….
> We put on our holy-kemoley hats and start judging people because we think we are ALWAYS right. Isn’t that what Pharisees in the bible did? How have we distorted the truth of what God is all about. We are not “scaring them” out from hell, we are actually “scaring them from GOD”.
4) and 5). This terrifying fear of the demon possessing inanimate objects and the housecleaning rituals…. mentions that demons and spirits only possess human beings and animals hence actually, my dears, your average plate that has a picture of the dragon………
> I believed there’s a need to cleanse the house of any spirit that’s not of God. Saying a prayer of blessing and of course cleansing and invite the presence of God to abide at that specific home is important because it is OUR HOME. I don’t believe on the fact that demon possessed objects. Nope. But why a need to throw all the objects-images of other Gods, occultic?
Philppians 4: 8- Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.
Because it is not edifying. Why keep something which doesn’t help you at all in the first place in your walk with God, and also a possibility of “distracting” you. Putting a dragon poster in my bedroom will definitely distracts me when I pray or even sleep or when I do my devotion. So why put it in the first place. It’s distracting. That’s my own personal view.
I agree with you here. That’s where there comes another ‘dilemma’… what if its not distracting? Or, another, ‘must it be distracting?’ … Now I feel most of us must remember this, an ant crawling on my leg can be distracting to me… but it can continue crawling and then fall off as I walk along… When a friend comes to me and tells me to brush off the ant, I’ll thank her and brush it off, lightly. I can also scream and go ‘urgh’ and jump until the ant falls off. I can also tell her, ‘Aiyah nver mind lah let it crawl, won’t bite me. Bite me also won’t feel.’ All three are correct.
Put it this way, if we don’t make a conscious effort to purchase ‘occultic’ objects, like Ouija boards… or to form an interest in occultic pursuits, like start a collection of Fengshui books and turn our lives around to focus on Fengshui instead of God… then we are fine. The occasional reading of an astrology ‘Your Sign Today’ can be done for fun, and it can be ‘nothing’ to the next person. Why turn ‘nothing’ into something? And if one should be distracted as something as ‘nonsensical’ as tarot card reading, do we pray to ask for Spirit guidance to lead us not into temptation, or to ask for Spirit to cast the demon out of the tarot card? The tarot card doesn’t contain life or spirit. It is the human heart that contains the soul. If the soul regards the tarot card as a piece of paper with funny drawings, and recognizes God as the Lord over all, then the spirit is safe.
> 6). Good point. It’s the mind set that we are so preoccupied with fighting the devil that we forgotten why we fight him in the first place. The victory HAS ALREADY BEEN won at the cross through Christ. It’s already “FINISHED” (that’s what Christ said, right?). Christ has already WON THE BATTLE. Do you think God needed OUR help to fight him in the first place? He’s GOD, right? What we really need to do battle is with our “own wickedness” inside us, “the devil inside us”…..hehe
You see, GOD is a loving God who CARES for us. Now the Bible says that Jesus holds the keys to Hell and the right to judge belongs to Him and Him alone. Keeping this in mind, it means that fundamentalists should stop extorting people into Christianity and instead focus on making things right with themselves and living in faith.
> EXACTLY, spot on. Look at our lives first, before we start wearing our “holy-kemoley hats” judging people this, and this. You can’t preach or share the love of Christ if we don’t have the love of Christ in us in the first place. We can’t say something which we don’t practice in ourselves first. Start walking the talk first.
Another good post from you, mini. Bless you.
alvin
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:29 am
No no… of coz I didn’t take offence.
This matter is important, but a lot of time I think it gets blown out of proportion coz ppl take it too personally. Look at the debates and conflicts going on in our country coz of racial and religious issues.
Dun need to be so serious, darling. In the end, if you lose the friendship, you’ll end up losing your influence over her life. How else are you to be the salt and light of the world?
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:54 am
[quote]
Unfortunately Peter, there is one thing you might want to understand about the concept of Christianity. We believe that all who are born of Adam *i.e. everyone of earth, is a sinner. Yet there is something else I wanna extend to Christians who feel that accepting Christ alone and undergoing the waters of baptism makes us cleansed of sins. The church is a place for sinners, God did not come to save the sinless, He came to save the sinners. Now having this in mind, it simply means that you, and me, non christian and christian alike, are both sinners. The difference is that I’ve accepted Christ as my lifeline, in my thirst to find a way to learn how to wash away my sins… and yet I accept that I will still continue to sin. You may have accepted another way to avoid or wash away your sins… that’s all right too.[/quote]
I do understand the concept of christianity as I am a born catholic but for nearly twenty years i have been struggling against some of the things that the church or staunch christians have told me because I dont think god is like that. Even you yourself are agnostic when it comes to deciding certain spiritual matters and do not truly follow what the church or religious leaders tell you to. Your post is entitled “My God is not the boogeyman” states that your idea of god runs in contrast with the majority.
I agree with you that good works and faith must go hand in hand but unfortunately most religious preachers/evangelists i have come across have been hypocrites and liars in their actions and the words they say that they so call claim to be inspired by God. We dont even know how to treat each other well and yet use God as an excuse to meddle with other people in dictating how they should act and think.
To me religion has come down to a point of ownership of God , i.e my god vs your god. If by what i have posted say that i am unchristian like just because i believe in god in a different way other than what kelvin said ( since it was the starting topic ) then so be it because i dont think my god would want people to have total blind faith without some discernment.
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Hi mini and Peter…
not to prolong the argument. That was just bringing up some points that were written in the Word. To tell the truth, i hardly go to Church nowadays because in some ways it has become more detrimental than edifying.
To me being a Christian, is accepting the Lord as your saviour, not becuase you are scared to go to heaven or hell but simply becuase you believe that He is God and that He died on the cross for you (an act of love so great beyond comprehension)
But that’s not only it, being a Christian also means having to take up the cross, and lead a life as Christ lead. I know at the moment i’m being hypocritical becuase i’m not exactly doing it. I’m still weak. But what does living a life that Christ lead means? Have you heard of the phrase WWJD? in every situation that youencounter, pause for a moment and think. What Would Jesus Do? in that same situation if He was there..i’m sure He would act in a different manner.
Like minishorts said, being a Christian does not make us high and mighty. It does not gives us the right of judging people. It breaks us of the yoke of sin of which the wages of sin is death and yet again there is a higher calling to live a life that’s holy .
Evangelism to me isn’t about hardselling tactics. It is instead about showing your love for God by doing things His way, doing good…tat ppl will turn around and ask what’s so different about you..that they’d want to know you better and in the end to know God. Jesus din’ exactly go around hard selling . And to him he doesn’t differentiate gentiles and jews..in the same way we should not place ourselves above other religions. minishorts is right in saying that we are all sinners.
As for prophetic visions and things like that. We have to be wary at all times. Whether it really is from God or from the devil , one must be able to distinguish it. Similarly, a lot of Christians speak in tongues. But if it does not edify the ppl around then don’t,..instead speak in private. The problem is what we do does not only affects us but affects those around us. In the same way we should try very hard to not be a stumbling block to others .
and by the way..i’m not baptised…not yet anyway
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:53 pm
By the way..there is a difference from being a catholic, methodist, charistmatic and being a Christian.
Being a Christian is about having faith and believing..while being any of the above simply means that you perform a certain rite or whatsoever regardless of believing or not.
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Who was it that said
Without religon you’ll have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But to have good people doing evil things, you eed religon
How very true. I admire Weinberg even more now
Looking at ppl who choose to take up the cross not as ‘Christians’ as in followers of the organized religion, you’ll understand that Christ followers live in total submission to GOd that they really know not what they do, i.e. we are incapable of defining for ourselves what is good and what is bad. Knowing this, and being aware of this allows for growth in humility. So you’ll know for sure, Shalini, a Christ follower earns his respect not by quick-conversion nor by spreading faith, but by living faith and inspiring faith.
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Mini, agree with you. It may be distracting for me, but NOT necessary for you or others. Agreed. But the option of opening ourselves TO such possibility of distraction is the point here. The question here is, it is “possible” that we may be distracted. Why should we open ourselves to such possibility when we can avoid it. There’re so many other distractions out there, believe we don’t need more, it’s more than we can handle, actually.
like I said alvin, its not like ppl like ‘us’ rebel and purposefully purchase an occultic ornament to test God, or even test the spirit. That is biblically wrong, and we shouldn’t do it. but let’s say I go to Dragon-I for makan, and I take home the wet tissue packet that has a picture of the dragon on it. issit biblical for me to run a cleansing ritual for the heck of the dragon image on the tissue packet? that’s just being overtly outrageous, if you don’t mind me. i’m not saying of course, all christians like this… this is a rant after all. but i’m sure you have experienced exhibitionists in our faith. i just wished my poor non-Christian friends don’t have to learn about Christ this way.
Mini, your reply to Shalini is spot on.
Religion is something that doesn’t really work, but a relationship God does.
November 22nd, 2006 at 5:37 pm
Hey like your post, like the way you look at things. Truly a new generation of ppl to take the world for God. Out of the box and not stuck in the rut. Continue to impact your friends.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:21 pm
cleansing ritual for images? never heard of this before…
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:31 pm
hopefully, the discussion of this topic will not turn out into a flamewar. keep on good work, minishorts.
November 23rd, 2006 at 1:14 am
Hi Minishorts, that’s a fresh perspective.. a very fresh perspective indeed.. loving Christ for heaven or for himself.. never quite saw it that way before….I got to think about it..
November 23rd, 2006 at 1:19 am
wonder how do we interpret this” no one comes to the father except through me”.. I used to think this is an exclusionary clause..the basis for monotheism… but if your argument that one should love Christ for who He is, then…. hmm. wait a minute.. it could be two different issues. I mean, there is no reason for one to love Christ and yet not want to be a Christian.
we are a confused lot!
November 23rd, 2006 at 10:25 am
I like to think of salvation as a new highway.
We’re all too poor to pay toll so some generous
man paid for everyone who wants to use the road.
Now the highway is free for anyone to travel
whether they believe in that kind man or not
But … as long as they obey the traffic rules
- yap
November 23rd, 2006 at 12:22 pm
i was reading your response on my comment, and i read your response on eRin’s comment and i read your post all over again, i find it really funny that you are taking the extra step in describing your relationship with God but at the same time you are deniying that right to your friend.
Both (the existence of God and your friend’s vision) are arbitary claim which cannot be proved, no?
If you can believe that God exist, why can’t your friend take a step futher and claim that Gos send her a vision? Maybe i’ll take another step futher and claim actually there’s Meta-God who is the actual creator of God who created the universe and is our savour, why not?
Not that it is surprising at all. I mean, it is a normal behavour of theist, to believe that his/her vision is the most aceptable, the most truthful.
aother note
Pardon me, if I am wrong, but did you actually wrote that you are incapable of deciding the right from the wrong without devine intervention? Let me echo the question Richard Dawkins asked :
“Are you telling me that the only reason you don’t steal and rape and murder is that you’re frightened of God?”
I always believed that human being by default, knows what is right and what is wrong. We don’t need God to tell us that. Anyway, was it not Abraham who almost beheaded his own son, a follower of God? Was it not Joshua, the man who perfected the art of infanticide, a humble servant of God? Even Bush claimed he had direct order from God to wipe out Iraqis and give oil and development projects woth billions of dollars to Halliburton? They all listened to God. Will you say that God showed them the right from the wrng?.
Ok. Before I am branded trolling again, let me stop.
Thanks
November 23rd, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Interesting discussion. One point in response to Leongheng’s comment (#11)… if you ask me whether all Christians will go to heaven, I would say I don’t know, because only God can know whether the person is really a Christian or not… only God can see into the person’s heart. Jesus did tell a story about the people who told him, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?” but he said he would reply, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (Matt 7:21-23) Talk about shocking… these people had all the outward appearance of being Christians, but apparently weren’t!
Likewise if you ask me whether all non-believers go to hell, I would also say I don’t know. What about the jungle tribes who have never had chance to hear about Jesus or even see a Bible?
Things are not always so black-and-white as we would like to think. In this respect I totally agree with what Minishorts said.
November 23rd, 2006 at 2:35 pm
“like I said alvin, its not like ppl like ‘us’ rebel and purposefully purchase an occultic ornament to test God, or even test the spirit. That is biblically wrong…….”
> Mini, think I replied on this issue of the “dragon picture in Dragon-I” in your latest entry- “the shanghai-10 makan place”. As I’ve said, about the point of distraction, it boils down to each individual for example whether the picture pose any distractions to them.
As for me, I don’t see a need in having a “cleansing ritual” lar for the tissue. HEHe, that would be too much I believe. And NOT wise either. I think it would be silly if I would have to organize every cleansing ritual to ALL the Chinese restaurants that I dine in…hahaha…since dragon is a common logo for Chinese restaurant. And THAT would be distracting.
Be wise to discern. Yes, I’ve seen Christians who have sincere intentions and motives BUT are sincerely very wrong in their method, or the approach taken. Instead of drawing people to Christ, we are driving them AWAY, scaring them. That’s why we asked ourselves, “Do our actions, speech, conduct edifies the people around us-believers & yet-to-be believers” every time. Well everyone make mistakes, Christian or no Christian.
So the question is, “conducting exorcism in the middle of the restaurant point people to God, show the love of Christ OR just scare people away”.
Discernment is needed. Bless you, mini.
“i just wished my poor non-Christian friends don’t have to learn about Christ this way”
> same here. Bless you for another thought provoking comment. Nowadays, people just accept the faith blindly. And I love the entry when you mention about whether “believing in Christ is ALL ABOUT going to heaven”. Excellent.
alvin
November 24th, 2006 at 2:49 am
Shalini I personally believe the knowledge of right and wrong is political. Something that seems right to you may be wrong to others. The same for homosexuality and the lot. Society influence, culture, religion, time, and background all play a role in shaping one’s worldview of things. So I don’t believe humans by default know what is right and wrong. Look at little children, don’t they always do silly things and make innocent mistakes without knowing the consequences? As a child grows up, his/her mind is shaped by their parents, guardians, and peers, who have their own fair share of political opinions. If there is a right and wrong by default, this world would be monotonously peaceful.
November 24th, 2006 at 11:57 am
Yvonne,
I would have agreed with you had you said knowledge of right and wrong is influenced by politic/religon (to some extent, religon is nothing more then glorified politics).
I like to use the example of Abraham, I am sure, he was a good human being who knew, leaving his own family in desert is wrong, beheading his own son is wrong, but being induced with the opium named religon, he thought it is only right to leave Hagr and Ishmael (or was it Isaac?) alone in desert without shelter and food just because God ask him so. He thought it is only rightful to behead his own son, just because God wanted him to do so.
I believe that even without religon or fear of God, you would know that killing others, looting and raping is wrong. I believe even if one is born to a rapist, live among theives and crooks, he/she will grow up knowing all that is wrong.
But then, enters religon/politics. Rape can be legal in some circumstances. Killing would be allowed, even glorified. Hate mongerers would be honoured.
Again I say, we as human collectively know by default what is wrong and what is right. And I agree, we might have made this world monotonously peaceful. Which is a good think I believe. Religon is creating havoc to this peace. Maybe we can blame God.
Shalini, I think moderation is required everywhere. The way I see it, religion doesn’t have to revolve around God, if you clearly define religion as a set of rules to abide by in order to call for peaceful community living. In that sense of the word, then atheism (denial of the existence of God) can turn into a religion if one choose to so vehement deny God to the extent of compartmentalising every known theistic religion into a nonsense-nutshell. Even atheism, in its extremes, can turn disastrous. So think about it, are you a fundamental atheist? *wink* I’d call myself a liberal / Progressive Christian, and that, disassociates me from going to extremes, I hope. While mine is a walk in faith that I know not good from bad without God’s divine instructions (holy book as my guide), my argument here is that I choose to use God and GOd alone as my immediate guide and not fall prey to the intrusion of self-appointed mediators. Your argument could be feasible, and I would love to admire your advocacy for the natural good of man through education (ie. we don’t need a God to tell us what is right and wrong). But the problem is the fundamentalistic motivation you have to disprove everything to ‘not-God’. It turns you into a fundamentalist also… because you don’t seek moderation, you enjoy the extreme.
The story of Abraham and the sacrifice of isaac as instructed by the Lord looks illogical. To unbelievers who are convinced that religion and God is an evil product of mankind’s teaching, you will choose to look at the senseless and selfish desire of the lord to test a person’s faith by askign Him to sacrifice His son. To believers, the story of Abraham in this instance is a guide and an inspiration, reminding us that on earth all things are immaterial. You push it a little further and we run back to the final point. The atheist believes when life ceases, life ceases, its easy for an atheist to accept this concept. For the majority of the human race, most people fear death because they fear loss, they can’t bear to take it. That’s where the Abraham story (a parable if you like) turns into a miracle. It demonstrates the ‘disreality’ that we’re living in, this earth, where one day we will all end our lives and lose every single thing on earth. Yet the only thing one cannot lose on death is one’s faith. The story demonstrates that if you trust God, and trust that in all things gone even when everything Disappears, and all is left is you and you alone, you don’t have to die in loneliness. It’s a comforting thought to most ‘normal’, ‘incapacitated’, ’stupid’ beings that make up the rest of the world. We’re the type who cannot live in loneliness, who require something, someone, at least a concept to cling to. For us, that concept is God, and therein lies the greatness of this story. it’s illogical to you because you look at it from your platform, your ‘there is no god, god is definitely bad’ platform. Because you’re the fundamental atheist.
Herein lies the difference, and if you didn’t know this already, I’ll explain it again. We shall all argue till kingdom come or end of time, it doesn’t matter. We all get annoyed when people want other people to accept their point of view, no matter how ridiculous it is. Yet we choose to forget that what is real to me, can be nonsense to you. My question, to all the people in the world is, why can’t we just live along each other ACCEPTING that my nonsense can be your reality, your nonsense can be my reality? Why is it necessary to put another person down just because he cannot believe that my reality is the only reality possible?
The other peeve is this, what’s the point of arguing so much about something that neither of us are qualified to justify? I’m talking about the existence of heaven and hell of course. I choose to believe it exists, that’s my choice. Its also my choice to not force you to believe it exists. since i accord you that privilege, shouldn’t you accord religionists the same privilege of continuing in they beliefs, seeing that they’re not hurting you at all? why throw out the baby with the bathwater, in order to prove your point(s)?
November 24th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Shalini,
I respect your opinion. But just want to clarify a bit. What I mean by politics is defined by an agreement that a group of people or community shares, and not the government, law, or constitution of a country. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
November 24th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
minishorts, i agree with you. i’m not christian but i do go to church, and temples and mosque’s if i could get in, for me we are all praying to only ONE God but doing it through different means.
i definately agree that the pushiness thing is really annoying and i’ve had loads of those encounters before.
i believe that we don’t have to answer to anyone but god so it isn’t neccesary to join any one group just to be “correct”, the important thing is to believe and have faith. God is almighty and all powerful and certainly not petty enough to punish a person’s soul just because he isn’t in a specific religion.
and regarding heaven and hell, every religion seems to have its own heaven and hell where their believers go to heaven and the non-believers go to hell. seems to me that everyone is going to heaven, just different heavens.
November 25th, 2006 at 1:44 am
Ian actually, in Buddhism, heaven is a state of mind called Nirvana. Possibly the hardest Heaven to penetrate that every existed.
November 25th, 2006 at 10:04 am
Oh, well said. As simple as that. Well said.
November 25th, 2006 at 6:45 pm
let me add this i m a christian in those church too n i personnely have heard of such vision in our church n i would like to telll those who claim he or she saw it please keep it to your self if u think god is revealing it to u. i personnely think its fake.bcos the bible have said there will be no more revealing once the book is complete.
christian need to grow up n stop pretending they r holier than thou who do not believe
sam
November 26th, 2006 at 9:16 pm
This is an amazing post. cheers, babe
November 27th, 2006 at 10:39 am
Awesome post. This is my first time commenting on one of the ‘elite famous’ blogs of Malaysia. Ahah. =) Maybe I felt that usualy ur blogs get a a sea of comments that would drown out mine. LOL. Anyway, I totally agree with u on this post and I find it frustrating when I meet fellow Christians who lose their sense of relevance to be all things to men to win some for Christ. Its funnylar coz well I am Charismatic and do believe in visions and stuff, but yea I guess what we all need is relevance and tact. Ahah…too often I find myself having to explain and clean up the mess of holier than thou Christians who turn people away from our loving and gracious God with their imagery of hell and brimstone. Ahah, thanks for writing this post. I actually just got up and feel a minor minor hangover from some beer (gasp goes the fundamentalists! =P) and somehow came to ur blog which I honestly dun visit often. =P. Waking up and reading this post definitely makes me smile and gives good spiritual food for thought. =) Cheers and God Bless! =)
God bless you too. I have to say sometimes mixing around with too many fundamentalists makes me feel terribly confused… quite hilarious seeing that Christianity is actually a very simple religion… for some reason with all its preaching of freedom in Christ fundamentalists seem to build up so many rules and laws into order to achieve that freedom, and if ANYONE of us should choose to question, it comes down to the devil within us, original sin, or… ‘HOW DARE YOU QUESTION?’… after a bit it gets a bit wtf really (there goes my brownie points for heaven). With all this talk of personal relationship with God I find it incredibility hilarious that fundamentalists keep wanting to get in between and start to provide guidelines into establishing a good relationship with the Lord. Suddenly churches have become our local ‘Idiot’s Guide to Reaching Heaven’ instead of sanctuaries of peace and communion with God. Ok I’m rambling on.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
Yvonne,
Nirvana actually a state where everything cease to exist. In Buddhism, those who are in heaven actually struggling to go Nirvana.
When the time you see everything formed only in glowing green colour code written vertically, you can choose to exist or not anytime you want.
November 27th, 2006 at 11:17 pm
haha, thats a good one beefstew
December 8th, 2006 at 7:50 am
I think your curiosity and boldness to blog your opinions about God in such a way is nothing less than admirable, especially at such a young age.
As the author of The GOD Report (http://www.thegodreport.org), I’m curious what you would think about my version of God as it is similar to yours with even more expansive properties.
It’s a fine line between believing in something strongly and being a religious extremist.
Best of luck to you.
Rev. Philippe “SHOCK” Matthews