Talking about sex at religious counsellings
Now both Eric and I come from pretty Charismatic backgrounds - so both our families (or my dad's side of the family and his family) do require that we do a proper process of going down the right path to the wedding altar. And because we want to have one of those classic, old fashioned kind of marriages where the pastor will bless the bride and the groom, and we can be together before God and profess to love each other till death us do part, the marriage counselling - is part of the rites of passage that Eric and I have both commited to complete.
Actually, Eric's family's a little bit 'deeper' than my 'messy-confused' lot - he's Pentecostal. In rather crude terms, the pentecostal Christians can be more fundamental than the most fundamental of fundamentalists. They usually take the bible very, very literally, down to the skirt lengths and candlewick heights in Deuteronomy, and they talk about building the perfect church perfect for heaven a lot. The charismatic / pentecostal cultures also talks a lot about sin and measures it on a moral compass - sin of course includes the unspeakable sex before marriage thing (and all that part about gays cannot go to heaven). So if you call yourself very fundamental usually it means that good Christians should believe in the bible totally and very very literally. You cannot ask strange questions, like, 'is it true that Jonah was swallowed up by a whale and SURVIVED?'
So if you are fundamentalist, and you lay with a woman when she is unmarried, than she is an adulteress and you'd have to cast her out of your life. Because God frowns upon it. According to fundamentalists, they say that God don't like it if we like or try sex before we get married. They say that God says if you are a not married go and sleep with a guy, or if you so much as let a guy see your hairy pot-pot before you married, you will go to hell.
Actually its not only the Christian fundamentalists who are like that. My mother who is very old fashioned and clings on tightly to her faith in the Goddess of Mercy, also says that good girls cannot have sex before they get married. And I know a lot of Muslims also think that way - but for some reason, some Muslims who don't really know people out of their circle of Muslim friends have very strange ideas about people who are not Muslims. I remembered meeting this Muslim lady at a function once who came up to me and asked me, 'I always wanted to ask you a question about people like you.'
'People like me?'
'Yah, you are the first I know who is Chinese, Christian and already has a boyfriend.'
'Okay…'
'Is it true that you guys don't have to get married but can stay together already?'
Unfortunately, Malaysia is full of fundamentalists whatever the religion and we are stuck in this country. So, as they all say, when in Malaysia, do as the Malaysians do. And good Christians in this country go for marriage counselling. Good marriage counselling courses, should have a section where they address the topic of 'whether you have had sex before you get married, and if you have not, how far have you gone in the petting zone'…
This is where I find that whole issue of evaluating the 'biblical quality' of a marriage preparation course rather odd. The bible doesn't really tell us what kind of kissing is permissible. It seems to tell us that lusting after a woman's breasts is normal and human, and that when two people fall in love, lust is natural and sex should follow (Songs of Songs lah which other book am I talking about?). The Malaysian resident Muslim activist blogger M.E.N.J. is insistent that good religions won't talk about sex at all and because the bible has a Mills & Boons chapter in it, it is therefore a bad religion. So you see, fundamentalists want to even measure God's goodness by making sure that everything he does will land in a humanly acceptable moral compass. And so, even a church-conducted marriage counselling session should have the necessary part where the couple is questioned on the issue of whether they have done it… and whether they have gone too far.
So before this, I was curious about what people talk about at marriage counselling sessions, prior to taking the course. And I did ask several more experienced people who've gone through the rigour. 'Do they ask intrusive questions ah?'
'Not necessarily. Sometimes the pastor does. Some pastors don't. Aiyah depend one lah.'
ANd my questions got down to the point of 'do they ask you if you hold hands, hug or kiss ah?'
One of my friends got a pastor who told them that couples are not supposed to have hard kisses. 'Soft kisses are fine.'
BUT WTF IS A HARD KISS ANYWAY?
You know what I think, this religious fundamentalist-led obsession with good sex and bad sex are totally sinful. The existence of unnecessary moral compasses are totally off the point. I thought marriage counselling was about affirming a couple's decision to get together, and if its about having God as centre of the relationship (which Eric and I do want very much), marriage counselling is about taking up lessons in communication, how to have better us time, what's the topics that might cause friction, how to resolve conflict, stuff like that. I mean what's the point of digging out stuff like, 'so when you hold hands you can hold until before the shoulder blade only, you cannot touch the girl below her neckline, you can peck on her lip but you cannot let the guy kiss your neck…'
If people really want to have sex before they get married, you think going in and telling them that they will go to hell if they have sex before marriage will stop them meh? Come on lah.
I will be very honest here. Because I am supposed to be a proper Malaysian Christian (and I want to look like that kind of good girl before the eyes of 80% of Malaysian Christians) I try not to think about God too much when Eric and I play tongue wrestling. And my pastor reads this blog, so I will tell him this here, yah Eric and I kiss. Sometimes ada tongue. Sometimes we hug. So far so good. If we fight we don't touch each other at all. So angry no feeling already, what for hug? I read somewhere that good couples will hug even if they are angry at each other. For me, no lor - if Eric pisses me off he can go and fly kite. When he says sorry then maybe lah, I let him kiss my forehead again.
And I personally also think people should not have sex before they get married, that is, if they wanna have the wedding in a church lah. Its not so good, I think. If you believe in a God that says you cannot have sex before you get married, and you want to have the wedding in a religious service that upholds that God, then it is only natural and normal that you… don't have sex before you get married mah. Or else what for get married before that God?
And THANK GOD, my marriage preparation course is very 'classy', just right for the likes of atas people like Eric and I. Plus, everyone who's met us know just what a good boy Eric is, and what a good girl I am. So really, this whole marriage preparation thing is really a fun together-thing that we've added on to our weekly calendar. And I am wearing a conservative white gown, with the veil covering my face when I walk down the aisle. 3+ months to go!
July 18th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Good post and point!!! Good to know someone out there also appreciate marriege counselling and the point you wrote “… Or else what for get married before that God?” That’s a good one!!!
July 18th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Haha.. good one…wtf is a hard kiss?
Hmm… I think it requires lip locking, tongue twisting and trying to have a taste of each other’s tonsil :p Ewww…
July 18th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
“You cannot ask strange questions, like, ‘is it true that Jonah was swallowed up by a whale and SURVIVED?’”
Um … the Bible said he was swallowed by a Great Fish. No evidence it was actually a whale.
Jonah 1:17 “But the Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.”
Which some say may have been a shark of some sort [for instance a Great White pointer. Or possibly a Whale such as a Sperm whale. Both which can swallow a man whole easily].
And there is a true account of a 19th century British whaler who was swallowed by a sperm whale and survived. He fell into the water and was swallowed whilst they were trying to harpoon the whale. Later, his whaling ship did successfully harpoon the whale and when they were cutting it up they found him still alive inside the whale [I have no idea how long he'd been in the whale]. He was however blind and all his hair & skin had turned white from the stomach acid in the whales stomach. He retired from whaling to become a carpenter.
“ …if you are fundamentalist, and you lay with a woman when she is unmarried, than she is an adulteress… “
No, you are both fornicators. Adultery is when you sleep with someone who is married, or you are married and sleep with someone. Sometimes the translations of the Bible refers to fornication, other times they translate it as sexual immorality. For example, Jude 7 gets translated in the NIV as sexual immorality, whilst the KJV translates it as fornication. The word in the original Kone Greek is “Ekporneysasai”, according to my Kone Greek Book, here it is literally “committing fornication”. So, I’d say it most likely that the fundamentalists got that one right. It is possible that it might just mean ‘committing sexual immorality’ which leaves it open to interpretation as to what ’sexual immorality’ actually means. [Of course, that interpretation of the word means that the Kone Greek in my book isn't as literal as it claims to be].
As for whether people have slept around before they get married or not … none of my business.
July 18th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
you’re starting to sound like Charlotte..the girl who married to a jew
July 19th, 2008 at 2:01 am
u sound like an aunty..
maybe can start go counsel ppl in 3+ months
July 19th, 2008 at 8:12 am
Why do you need “god” permission to do or not to do all these? The older Chinese generations have been practicing “cleanliness”; the do and don’t before marriage for thousands of years without any involvement of “god”. This is yet another indication that the Arahamic god is purely made-made.
i don’t know that we need God’s permission to do this. I know that the Religion tells us that its not right for us to have sex before you get married. I do agree that religion is man made. I’ve also experience that humanity has demonstrated a senseless need to have the last say, whether it is for God or against God or for the in between-ness of agnosticism. Either way, I completely agree with you, since that seems to make you happy.
July 19th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
i do like the part that says, if u break gods rule y marry before him.
to do or not to do.it depends on ones morale compass…some just follow the nike:Just do it.
i believe the interpretation of religion is up to oneself..so if u break it..just face the punishment urself.no need to bring others or try to enforce it.
ive got a fren whos says his ustaz say u n ur gf..should have 1 hand(jengkal) distance away frm each other when walking..touch is ofcoz forbidden.
so do as u wish…and when others do it, dun get jealous.
July 19th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
sure boh??? hahahahaha….
July 20th, 2008 at 2:56 am
“The older Chinese generations have been practicing “cleanliness”; the do and don’t before marriage for thousands of years without any involvement of “god”.”
Cleanliness? The do and don’ts before marriage? What are you referring to?
And why not go a bit further and mention the do and don’ts AFTER marriage, where the men are ok to go fool around as long as they come back home?
July 21st, 2008 at 1:36 pm
does dry humping count as ’sex’? or only when intercourse is involve?
Ohhh.. Im a sinner..
July 21st, 2008 at 11:57 pm
sex before marriage is so unforeplay… hehe
July 22nd, 2008 at 9:39 am
Eh… I want to ask…. if you dont try the sex before marriage how you know he/she is going to make you “happy”? What if he/she (the spouse la) fail miserably?? Maybe for the guy, no big shake la… they will always end up happy like a bumble bee.. but the woman leh?? left dissatisfied and frustrated… wahh… a life time like that ah?? HOW!??? Aiyoo… sign name liao cannot refund wor.. HOW!??
Yah mah!! buy things also must got sampling, demo or product display mah… how to buta buta buy like that.. and go home, bukak, try try.. alamak basket! WAHHHH….
I’m sure you can go around ‘trying’ until you find the right guy. I don’t have to. I’m GLAD I don’t have to. I’m actually sad you have to. *hugs*
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:02 am
i guess you dont practice what you preach coz a little bird told me otherwise and complete opposite of what you wrote there, i guess hypocrisy has no limits. All the best for your so called clean marriage infront of an almost non-existing god.
Thank you very much, En Penjaga Moral
July 22nd, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Aiyah.. I also didnt go around trying… but I make sure I tried first lor… if tak jadi, than at least i know from the start… not like… get stuck!
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Aiyo seriously people, don’t have to personally attack Minishorts lah. I mean surely if she don’t practice what she preaches then SHE is the one facing God what, not you (NoGod)…geez!
Plus I don’t agree with what M.E.N.J says, according to him a good religion doesn’t talk about sex?! Wah, then if got questions/confusion about sex how? Goodness gracious! In my opinion, a good religion talks about sex, so all/any kind of questions can be answered! Maybe this is why Muslims have the highest rate of incest (I’m not being racist, this is proven by a survey-which is later criticized as it on the basis of race).